I have am deluxe strat and I have always had
intonation issues I was playing the other night and
I finally had enough I took my stings off and pulled
the nut off . my question is this if the nut is incorrectly
cut will it cause intonation to be off over the fretboard
and do you think a new nut can improve this problem

_________________
1956 Gibson CS Lemon Les Paul
1957 Fender CS Aged Cherry Strat
1958 Gibson CS Pg 85 Les Paul
1960 Fender CS 3tsb Strat
1961 Gibson SG Wildwood Pelham blue
1966 Fender CS Firemist Metallic Silver Strat

Hi clem160: if the nut was cut very high indeed then it can cause intonation problems at the lowest frets. This is because the string has to travel an appreciable distance down to meet those first frets and that will bend it slightly sharp. Even on the worst cut nut I doubt you'd notice that above the fourth or fifth fret though.

A quick way to check if the nut slots are cut to the right depth. Fret a string at the first fret and look very carefully at how much of a gap there is between the top of the third fret and the underside of the string. Then fret the string at the third fret and check the gap beneath the underside of the string and the top of the first fret.

If those two gaps are approximately the same then there probably isn't a problem. If the second gap is a lot bigger than the first one then the slot is likely not cut deep enough. If there is no gap at all on the second test then the slot is cut too deep (but then you'd know that already because of unwanted buzzing at the first fret when the string was played open).

I'd be somewhat surprised if the nut is cut wrong on a Deluxe, but it can happen. Though I have a sneaking suspicion your intonation problems are going to turn out to be something else...

Let us know how you get on.

Cheers - C

+1 Ceri

If the neck was shimed to tilt back it could also cause the nut to appear too low or cut too deep. If the nut is at an appropriate hight you could adjust the angle of the strat's neck tilted up. Although it is trial and error (i.e, stringing up several times) to find the ideal angle. The shims must be very thin like paper not chuncks of wood. During the winter months the neck has a tendency to bend back due to the cold weather and dry humidity.

My G string (not undies) and B string always
played sharp at frets 2,3 and 4 so I use to
compensate by tuning G 5-10CNTS FLAT but
a D CHORD would sound Good and a C CHORD
would not or vise versa and as far as barre chords
they were OK frets 3-5 but higher and they would be off
as well . I know that this problem is inherant on guitar
however not to the degree I'm experiencing also of note
none of my other guitars do this . And I have the three main types
Set neck with fixed bridge , Bolt neck with tremolo and Bolt
neck with hardtail. so I have to assume it is a problem with that
particular Guitar being that it was used and look like somebody
tried some kind of graphite in the nut and the slots look as
though they have been filed (so are my Intonation issues
problems that a poorly cut nut can cause?)

either way I am having a new one Installed
I'll let you know how it goes

_________________
1956 Gibson CS Lemon Les Paul
1957 Fender CS Aged Cherry Strat
1958 Gibson CS Pg 85 Les Paul
1960 Fender CS 3tsb Strat
1961 Gibson SG Wildwood Pelham blue
1966 Fender CS Firemist Metallic Silver Strat

You'd need superman hearing to notice any intonation issues caused by the nut beyond the 5th fret. To the point that if you're hearing beyond the 5th fret I'm almost certain it's not a nut slot issue. The extra height at the slot will become less of a factor as you progress up the board, the angle at the nut side becomes more in line with a properly cut slot.

I had a badly slotted nut on my Deluxe, as well as fretwork. One of the first things I had to sort out. I would not rule it out. Far as I'm concerned Fender cut their slots on the high side anyway.

Are you noticing this primarily with chords? If so is it open chords or barre chords?

_________________
No no and no

+1 to all of that.

Though in this particular case, unusually, it sounds like maybe the nut really is an issue as far as the low frets are concerned:

New nut, badly fitted by an inexperienced user? Maybe some of those slots really are in the wrong places and contributing to bad low position intonation.

Also:

These are interesting observations and make me wonder if this is one case where a compensated nut might really be worth the time of day.

Clem, if you read this in time why not ask your tech to fit an Earvana compensated nut? It is only a few dollars more and unlike some systems involves no permanent changes to the guitar neck. I think you might be pleasently surprised as to how much better those chords sounds against one another.

It ain't the treasure at the end of the rainbow - but it might be an improvement. (And it so happens, I have Nikininja to thank for my conversion to compensated nuts... )

Anyway. Options.

Cheers - C

Clem, how did you measure the 5-10 cent inaccuracy on the G string?

Before you go chasing compensated nut's (something I think everyone should try), be sure that you're not hearing the imperfect 5ths 4ths and 3rds of modern music.

It sounds like it could be a mixture of both a high slot and the inaccuracies of the tempered scale. They do go hand in hand for guitarists.

Try tuning your guitar to this chord.
Low E to concert pitch
A to concert pitch
D 2nd fret to octave of the low E (By ear), check it's tuning as a 5th to the open A. By ear again.
G 2nd fret to octave of the open A
B fifth fret to octave of the E note on the d string 2nd fret.
High E fifth fret to octave of the G string 2nd fret.

Don't use a tuner except for getting that low E to concert pitch.

Play that chord, check it rings right, then try the open D to open C, see if the problem is as bad as before. (that is no method to tune your guitar by in a realworld application. It will leave barre chords sounding like a dissonant hell)

What that will do is take the 3rds out of a A chord, it also avoids you tuning by ear using the 5th and 4th frets or harmonics on those frets as refrence points (a bad area on guitar).

Let me know how you go with that, and we'll go a bit deeper. As Ceri said, theres no way to perfect this problem without going to a 26fret to the octave neck. You can work your way round it though.

_________________
No no and no

I'm just going to take the opportunity here to pay tribute to Niki on this subject. Influenced by him I have actually made compensated nuts from scratch - however I only know they work because my ear says so. Nikininja is one of the few people I've come across who has actually studied and understands the mathematics of intonation in this issue: damned if I do!

So anyone who's interested, pay good attention to what Nick says on this stuff. He really knows.

All the evidence shows he has the best flippin' ears out there too...

Cheers - C

[quote="Ceri"]

All the evidence shows he has the best flippin' ears out there too...

Cheers - C[/quote

I'd have to disagree on that. I'm pretty certain Miami Mike's ears are a lot better than mine. Certainly backed up by evidence of his super accurate bends (im prone to be flat) and far better guitar sounds.

_________________
No no and no

I can't tell you how easily I saw that coming!

Hey Nick: at our national sport of self-deprication I'm sure that you are much better than me.

Over...

Cheers - C

Thank you guys for your input what I meant by
the Gstring 5-10cents off I mean that I purposely
flatteed it to get better sounding chords in Open
position but as you guys said the barre chords
are then way off if I tune the G to 440 using
electronic tuner than my higher Barre chords are good
but the Open Chords are horrible
I know that guitars have this problem to an extent
but NONE of my other Guitars are near this pitchey
---
By the by the reason this tuning is such an issue
Is when playing in church I play with a classically
trained pianist with ears like a Hawk and If you Know
hymnal music many songs have a healthy mix of
Open and Barre chords in the same song even trying
to cheat with a capo there is no way around it
in some songs and Christmas songs are absolute
murder with a chord change on nearly every syllable
mix of Major, minor, 7ths, borrowed chords, (when it
gets too much I just switch over to lead and improve a
counter melody)

but thank you guys again Ceri and Nikninja are TITANS
OF THE BOARD and to have their input is invaluable
along with my electronics friend Martian

_________________
1956 Gibson CS Lemon Les Paul
1957 Fender CS Aged Cherry Strat
1958 Gibson CS Pg 85 Les Paul
1960 Fender CS 3tsb Strat
1961 Gibson SG Wildwood Pelham blue
1966 Fender CS Firemist Metallic Silver Strat

Clem

Firstly mate, great respect to anyone who can use their instrument for what it was properly intended, like David did.

Why not just play barre's and turn down a little, let the keys take over, just go along for the ride. You won't be absolute pitch correct, but then again neither is the keys player. The root of the problem is the modern tempered scale.
Guitars highlight that because their modular instruments. Similar notes appear all over the neck. No four D's are all the same! Even on the best instruments in the world, made to the most exacting intonation requirements, a modular instrument can't do that. Simply because of the difference in string size and the amount of travel it faces. Example, tune a D string to pitch, tune the high E to pitch. Fret the E at the 14th fret on the D string and check it against the open high E. Their not bang on exactly the same, because the D string has undergone tension. Ok in that example the result is mitigated by the intonation correction at the 12th fret by moving the saddle. So everyone except Superman and unusually observant bat's notice it. Plus you have no real reason to play those 2 positions together. It's just a easy way of highlighting the problem for modular instruments
.
Your Keys player has a similar problem the bottom C on his keyboard is way flatter than the top C, not just octave flat, pitch flat.
That my friend is a negative aspect of the tempered musical scale. Which is how the other side of the problem manifests itself for linear instruments.

Neither are perfect.

However I digress, this is a issue close to my heart.
I really think you'll solve the problem by getting the nut slots on your guitar sorted out.
The reason I think that? Because you don't have the problem on other guitars. I think you're hearing a badly cut nut. As I said previous it's more than possible.
Get it to a good tech, or bring it to my house in the UK. Shouldn't cost you more than £20/$30.
Make sure you check the saddle intonation afterwards.

_________________
No no and no