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Post subject: Re: Strat Mod's
Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 4:35 am
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The thing to remember about treble bleeds is that you'll always get the overpowering treble to a certain extent. It can be curtailed by changing the values of the capacitor and resistor though. It's worth having a good look at them and getting it straight in your mind exactly how they work. Then should you get a guitar where you need to use the treble bleed mod, you'll have a good idea how to best go about it.


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Post subject: Re: Strat Mod's
Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 6:14 am
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This whole "treble bleed" surely by now comes under the love it or hate it 'umbrella'.

Personally, I feel that extraneous resistors and capacitors attempt to treat symptoms and not causes as the initial circuit needed to be thought out better. Further, these add-ons may solve some problems but surely create others which to me, is counter intuitive.

To give a balanced presentation though, others feel such resistors and caps give the circuit the final 'tweak' they need to make the desired tonality perfect and any inherent problems these additional components may introduce are irrelevant or non-existent.

This reminds me about a guy I knew years ago who had an SG Standard. This was in 1968 to be exact. He despised the OEM Gibson HBs in the SG and said he wanted and was getting Rickenbacker pickups; you know, the "Toaster" ones. Frankly, I thought the whole concept was utterly ridiculous but I never let on. Well, about two weeks later, we wound up on the same venue where his band went on first. He walked out on stage with a Ric 330 pickguard, pickups and all taped to the face of the SG where all the Gibson electronics were gutted! His band started playing and personally, I thought he sounded great! After his set was over, I complimented him on his overall performance. Humble as he was, he thanked me and simply said, "Thank Goodness for Rickenbacker pickups!"

The bottom line: Whatever is right for the individual player IS right!!!

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Post subject: Re: Strat Mod's
Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 6:20 am
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im still very unclear as to what this treble bleed does exactly.

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Post subject: Re: Strat Mod's
Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 6:46 am
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way cool jr wrote:
im still very unclear as to what this treble bleed does exactly.


The popular name, "treble bleed" is essentially, a contradiction. In actuality, this circuit is not a treble 'bleed' at all. Rather, it RETAINS retains the treble in a circuit instead of bleeding it to ground. This is unless of course, you want to say that the circuit 'bleeds' treble all over the place in which case, "Treble Hemorrhage" would be a more appropriate phrase for this circuit.

In a nutshell: This circuit musters up and pushes the bulk of the inherent treble available from the guitar's pickup(s) and rest of the guitar's 'usual' circuit through the volume pot as the volume is reduced. Yes, the volume pot.

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Post subject: Re: Strat Mod's
Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:39 am
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I'll share my experience with the treble bleed... I got a Fralin loaded pickguard a while back to replace the N3 pups on my Dlx Strat, it came with what Lindy calls "volume kit". At first I was extremely happy with the way my Strat sounded! But I kept having to turn down the tone cause it sounded way too trebly compared to my other Strats... the Dlx sounded great clean and at low volume with the tone dialed in but something wasn't right when I was out playing and had the vol all the way up and tube screamer kicked in, it sounded kinda harsh. After a few months with this setup I recently decided to remove this volume kit and I'm much happier now. The Dlx is more balanced now, most of the vol was available between 1-6, now it's more even and similar to the other Strats. No more harshness at loud vol!

I see the benefits of using a treble bleed if the pups are too warm sounding, but that's not the case with any of my Strats, so I have no need for one anymore.


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Post subject: Re: Strat Mod's
Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:10 am
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cedarblues wrote:
I'll share my experience with the treble bleed... I got a Fralin loaded pickguard a while back to replace the N3 pups on my Dlx Strat, it came with what Lindy calls "volume kit". At first I was extremely happy with the way my Strat sounded! But I kept having to turn down the tone cause it sounded way too trebly compared to my other Strats... the Dlx sounded great clean and at low volume with the tone dialed in but something wasn't right when I was out playing and had the vol all the way up and tube screamer kicked in, it sounded kinda harsh. After a few months with this setup I recently decided to remove this volume kit and I'm much happier now. The Dlx is more balanced now, most of the vol was available between 1-6, now it's more even and similar to the other Strats. No more harshness at loud vol!

I see the benefits of using a treble bleed if the pups are too warm sounding, but that's not the case with any of my Strats, so I have no need for one anymore.


Thank you, this is what I've been saying all along!

It is with extremely high output pickups which are founded on excessive midrange where there MAY be some benefit from a treble retention circuit. Of course, this is if one doesn't mind the erratic volume pot sweep. And at the risk of sounding redundant, I can't fathom why some players will try to coax all the treble they can out of a high output pickup, sacrificing all other frequencies in the process when they can just as easily utilize a lower output pickup to achieve the same end where an overall, better tonal balance shall inherently be there.

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Post subject: Re: Strat Mod's
Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:21 am
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This has been a great education for me on treble bleed and I now know I would never consider it! If anything I tend to 'tame' the trebles on my Strats because that is a tonal quality they definitely do not lack! (IMHO)


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Post subject: Re: Strat Mod's
Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:42 am
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JohnnyG01 wrote:
This has been a great education for me on treble bleed and I now know I would never consider it! If anything I tend to 'tame' the trebles on my Strats because that is a tonal quality they definitely do not lack! (IMHO)


Continue to stick around AND ask questions. Guaranteed, you'll get an education and a half!

One of the great things about this forum is (as you can see), there are contrasting points of view where we don't verbally beat up on each other when we disagree. Rather, we present our positions with respect for all where one can gather the 'data' required to make an informed decision for oneself.

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Post subject: Re: Strat Mod's
Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:55 am
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Thanks Martian. I enjoy a healthy exchange of views - a great way to learn.

So much about guitars (especially Strats) is subjective and it's good to see the tolerance that exists here in acknowledgement of this.


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Post subject: Re: Strat Mod's
Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 12:02 pm
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JohnnyG01 wrote:
Thanks Martian. I enjoy a healthy exchange of views - a great way to learn.

So much about guitars (especially Strats) is subjective and it's good to see the tolerance that exists here in acknowledgement of this.


Any time!

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Post subject: Re:
Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 4:03 pm
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Al 87 wrote:
Andybighair wrote
Quote:
Give me a shout if you want a bit of brass....

Though a "Heinz" base plate does sounds kinda cool!



Like the ninja said anything that conducts magnetism, not electricity so no brass there matey.

Anything with some iron in it.

Dont some aftermarket pups come with the option of a base plate? looks easy to bash some up from anything a magnet is attracted to tho!

. . . Al

Thanks man, I hadn't thought about that. Gotta get me some steel!

Martian wrote:
I figure I'll put my two cents in:

Essentially, a base plate serves three functions:

1. Ferromagnetic
2. Electrodynamic
3. Increased shielding

It should be noted the ferrous or words such as #1 above mean the metal is composed of and/or predominantly derived from iron.

Mr. Fender used copper plated steel base plates on the Tele bridge pickups in order to stabilize and increase the magnetic pull of the Alnico III polepieces. The steel was copper plated to retard the steel's oxidization and as most know, copper is an excellent conductor. Ferromagnetic steel plates increase coil inductance akin to mimicking more winds of the coil.

The steel of itself aids in the transmission of the strings through the base plate to the bridge plate via the height adjustment screws and here is where the Tele 'twang' is born. Of note is the obvious fact that this twang will not manifest itself by merely putting a base plate on and in a Strat pickup in a Strat pickguard.

As I've said many times, eddy currents are created when anything is added into the circuit's magnetic field. In this case, base plates made of steel, copper , brass and/or aluminum will create eddy currents. These eddy currents invariably shift the tonality of the affected pickup(s) towards mids and lows where it will be most noticeable with a bridge pickup. Consequently, the better conductivity of the metal(s) used for the base plate, its thickness, etc, will all shape the final tonality of the pickup it is teamed with.

In summation: Only 'regular' steel base plates fulfill the three functions as I've stated above. Brass, copper and aluminum are not ferrous metals and therefore, meet only functions 2 and 3. Lastly, the most common forms of stainless steel used with guitar hardware only meet function 3 as stainless steel's inherent properties largely negate any ferrous influence.

And that is a piece of forum gold right there!

Cheers chaps, Good thread. :D

Andy

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Post subject: Re: Re:
Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 5:30 pm
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Andybighair wrote:
Al 87 wrote:
Andybighair wrote
Quote:
Give me a shout if you want a bit of brass....

Though a "Heinz" base plate does sounds kinda cool!



Like the ninja said anything that conducts magnetism, not electricity so no brass there matey.

Anything with some iron in it.

Dont some aftermarket pups come with the option of a base plate? looks easy to bash some up from anything a magnet is attracted to tho!

. . . Al

Thanks man, I hadn't thought about that. Gotta get me some steel!

Martian wrote:
I figure I'll put my two cents in:

Essentially, a base plate serves three functions:

1. Ferromagnetic
2. Electrodynamic
3. Increased shielding

It should be noted the ferrous or words such as #1 above mean the metal is composed of and/or predominantly derived from iron.

Mr. Fender used copper plated steel base plates on the Tele bridge pickups in order to stabilize and increase the magnetic pull of the Alnico III polepieces. The steel was copper plated to retard the steel's oxidization and as most know, copper is an excellent conductor. Ferromagnetic steel plates increase coil inductance akin to mimicking more winds of the coil.

The steel of itself aids in the transmission of the strings through the base plate to the bridge plate via the height adjustment screws and here is where the Tele 'twang' is born. Of note is the obvious fact that this twang will not manifest itself by merely putting a base plate on and in a Strat pickup in a Strat pickguard.

As I've said many times, eddy currents are created when anything is added into the circuit's magnetic field. In this case, base plates made of steel, copper , brass and/or aluminum will create eddy currents. These eddy currents invariably shift the tonality of the affected pickup(s) towards mids and lows where it will be most noticeable with a bridge pickup. Consequently, the better conductivity of the metal(s) used for the base plate, its thickness, etc, will all shape the final tonality of the pickup it is teamed with.

In summation: Only 'regular' steel base plates fulfill the three functions as I've stated above. Brass, copper and aluminum are not ferrous metals and therefore, meet only functions 2 and 3. Lastly, the most common forms of stainless steel used with guitar hardware only meet function 3 as stainless steel's inherent properties largely negate any ferrous influence.

And that is a piece of forum gold right there!

Cheers chaps, Good thread. :D

Andy


I thank you!!

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