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Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 4:55 pm
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orvilleowner wrote:
So about how long will we have to wait to see that Les Paul Project take shape? Gotta practice shooting a sunburst finish?


but not just any sunburst :wink:
Not sure on any kind of timeline though, unfortunately. :cry:


Ceri wrote:
I just assumed that geet had been finished and packed off to Mr Slash ages ago.



The guy whose plank inspired my plan for this has been dead a lot longer than Slash! :wink: :wink: :P

seriously though, i think paint inspired by one who passed, and wiring by one who went crazy (for a while at least)

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Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 4:57 pm
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Twelvebar wrote:
The guy whose plank inspired my plan for this has been dead a lot longer than Slash! :wink: :wink: :P


hmmmmm, dead Les Paul slingers? Besides Les himself ... Kossof? Ronson?

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Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 11:01 pm
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orvilleowner wrote:
... Kossof? Ronson?

Worthy choices, both, but I'm not sure their respective LP's were quite as distinctive, nor were they preserved by , as legend has it, his famous 'Dreg' of a friend sealing it up in a wall in his studio until the owner's daughter was old enough to inherit it.



Ceri wrote:

Next: pictures for those as don't like to read; words for those as do. Good. But some of us want more words. In particular, those who are falling over in admiration at a fella mixing his own metallic paint require recipes, please. Seriously: weights and quantities, and some discussion of nozzle size and spraying pressure, if you'd be so kind. And how's cleanup - more tiresome than usual?


Ceri now it is my turn to apologize, I said i would try provide answers, and then I indulged in a giant tangent instead!!! So for ceri and anyone else interested read on, anyone not interested in the minutiae of painting would be well advised to skip, i think the only thing that could be more boring than watching paint dry, would be reading about paint drying.

So I guess first off, when this project is done I will have used 4 separate guns. yikes it seems like a lot, but way back when I did that other project I found a sweetheart deal at a place dumping 'last year's model' I scooped the last 3 of that particular HVLP gravity fed gun. That's High Velocity-Low Pressure with a cup that sits on top of the gun, rather than the traditional paint cup that sits below and paint is moved through a siphon hose, for those of you unfamiliar with the equipment.

Image

I have dedicated one gun to sealers and primers. Another for shooting any colours, and the third for shooting 'only clear coats and/or amber tinted clears.

I also have one siphon feed gun that came with my compressor, it became my dedicated gun for metallics. These bits are brutal to clean, i always fear that no matter how good a job you do there's always a chance some fleck will have hidden in the gun, and is laying in wait to jump out and ruin the surface of an otherwise pristine job.

The three gravity fed guns have 1.4mm nozzles. which I have never found a need to change sizes from spraying either lacquers or urethanes.
The tube fed gun, which is surprisingly high quality considering it was packaged with my compressor, has a larger nozzle, 1.8 or 2.0mm, I'll have to find the documentation. This was ideal for spraying the metallic, as I mixed it fairly thick. All this gun needed was a pressure gauge and a regulator, which I had a spare of anyway, from a friend who didn't clean one of his guns after spraying a 2 part urethane on his truck. (I doubt you could remove the nozzle with anything short of an oxy-acetylene torch!)

I tend to spray at 35 PSI, I think i went a touch higher, like 40 when I did the metallics, as I mixed them fairly thick. But I didn't really keep track, I sprayed on scrap first always, and I started at 35 PSI, but adjusted until i was happy with how it flowed. Always practice on scrap!!

Clean up for metallics is worse for sure, but I am always very diligent when cleaning my spray equipment, I's a not made 'o money. from what i see of your work areas and tool care, i deduce that you are also extremely careful, so I can't say it was very much worse, since I put in that effort every time. one thing I will say, i am sure I did before but, if possible don't handle the powders inside. they are super fine, it takes only the very slightest disturbance in the air to waft it around, and it is impossible to completely clean up.

I have to work outside, and i enclose my little spray booth entirely, so no wind, I made a cocoon or bubble of Poly sheet when i mixed my metallic lacquer, and sacrificed a paper painter's overalls to the task, to keep from contaminating the booth.

How's that for more words??

Anyway on to recipes...

For the sealer, for the first wash coat I cut it 1:1 with lacquer thinner, but only for the very first thin wash coat. i followed that with a coat straight out of the can.

The rest of the paint started life as Behlen's 'Master' Qulalacq, then had other stuff added to it. The label says to cut it 1:1 with thinner, but to me that is a guideline at best. :wink:

These recipes will seem really similar. I kind of winged it a bit at times. i used Mason jars, like people use for canning and jam and stuff to mix and store my lacquers.

1) White lacquer/primer:

i got some white liquid pigment from the local paint shop, in fact for a couple dollars I got more than i can probably use in a few years (even if i were to spray 2 or 3 guitars a month, instead my current pace of of 1 a year!!)

So I actually measured the lacquer and thinner for this one, 5 ounces each.

I poured about 2 ounces of thinner into a jar. then i added some of the pigment (say around 2 tablespoons-ish,)and stirred it up, I added pigment until I was happy with it being a strong white, and it was pretty thick, almost as thick as Titebond glue.
then I added the lacquer and the rest of the thinner a bit at a time. I added a bit more pigment to keep the white strong. and then I had to add a bit more thinner to get it to spray how i wanted. I eyed that out, but it wasn't very much, and you should be test spraying, so you just need to find a balance you like.

2) The metallics. these were done the same way, only using the different colour powder, (Duh!)

So rather than using anything with big flakes, I thought you get a different kind of, and deeper sheen from using 'bronzing powders'
Now , flake can look really good, like Kong's guitar. And a lot of the pre-mixed aerosols some of you are lucky to have access too use flake for their Candy bases, but I had a different look in mind, I think i got a deeper look to the whole effect than if i had used flakes, and it is certainly a little more unique.

i didn't actually know about these powders until i went to a local art supply store to get, of all things a block of beeswax (used to lubricate screws when screwing into harder woods like alder and maple-this would have saved our friend Kong a lot of grief,) and I happened to see a display of these powders, with little sample cards of what each looked like
and that's when it clicked for me. i picked a silver and a gold that I like best from the chart. i don't know what medium they had used for them, and I would have been happy if my product had looked like the samples, but I think mine looked even better, so either I mixed them differently (highly likely as the writing on their labels was too small so i didn't follow their directions, or they really mix well in lacquer.

Image


I mixed the silver first.so what i did was pour a half ounce of lacquer thinner into a jar. I added an ounce of the powder and mixed the hell out of it.
then i added some half and half lacquer/thinner mixture to it until i had enough to fill my spray cup about half full. that's about how carefully I measured. i did make sure to add equal parts lacquer and thinner though.
Then it seemed really thin, and not as shiny as it had when i had started adding the lacquer, so i slowly stirred in a bunch more powder. I would guess around the same amount i started with, maybe even more. i trusted my eye on this. i wanted a really rich silver, like Ceri said you never see it that rich. i test sprayed on the blocks of 2X4, and i was really happy with the result.

i still have a bit of the silver left, in case i needed to touch up.

i then repeated the process with the gold. i actually used even more powder, but I had to be careful to keep it sprayable. but I really wanted the gold to shine through the red.

I sprayed , and jiggered the mix until i was happy. then it was bed time.

i did this before i started spraying, even the sealer, and the next week or so had either bad weather or me having no time to work.so by the time I got to the point to spray the metallics , the silver was fine, but when I went to spray the gold it had started turning bright green. i did some reading and found out 'bronzing powders' are really aluminum, but the 'gold' ones actually have some bronze in them too (guess the name should have been a giveaway,), which means they oxidize, which meant I had to remix some more gold, the next batch turned out even better anyway, it's what you saw. so if you mix gold lacquer this way, you need to use it quick, and no saving it for touch ups later. I also made doubly sure that the last task of the day after the gold had set, was two thin washcoats of clear, to seal off the gold, and keep it from turning colour.
I do a clear coat last all the time anyway, it adds a thin layer of protection, and a little safety zone if i screw up a later stage, and have to sand back, it helps save the lower layers.


the silver is still fine by the way.


3) The cherry red lacquer. it is just red dye mixed into half and half lacquer/thinner. there are many red dyes you can buy that are compatible with lacquer, find one you like, add it in 'til you find a shade you like. Test spray, because you can't really tell how it looks until you do spray it and let it dry.


For all of this i used 35 PSI as a starting point for spray pressure, but again I adjusted my regulator on the fly until i found settings that worked.
You'll have to find what works for you.

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Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 1:14 am
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Quote:
seriously though, i think paint inspired by one who passed, and wiring by one who went crazy (for a while at least)


LP player that went crazy for a little while? Peter Green perhaps...

One who's past who has a notable sunburst guitar... well it wouldn't be les, cause he didn't like the burst.... Could be Brian Jones, although I don't know what was notable about his burst. Randy Rhodes didn't notably play with a burst. Duane Allman had a pretty sweet tobacco burst. Mike Bloomfield had a FANTASTIC looking heritage cherry burst. Whats weird is he wrote the book about playing a tele, and then switched to a totally different sound. Horses for Courses hey ;)

Now, given you mentioned Dregs, is there any tie in to the Dixie Dregs? Haven't heard that legend. Hopefully its one of the blokes I named in the list above :)

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Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 4:00 am
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Well, Twelvebar. I expect some people chose to skip most of that, but others here found it one of the most interesting, value packed posts we've had for ages. Thank you very much for all of that! :D

Especially this:
Image

Ha - I have easy sources for exactly those powders! I'd never thought of using them in lacquer - kinda had a superstition we were meant to stick to the automotive type powders. But without doubt your silver is the best I've ever seen on a guitar: it hurt to see it covered up - or would have done if the final red didn't look so damn juicy! I want to bite into that Candy Apple! :D

(Elsewhere) Mike Eldred has been quoted as saying; "All paint lots are equal... but some are more equal than others." If he doesn't see your metallics and rethink how the Custom Shop does its candies then he's missing a trick! I know these powders are relatively expensive - but then so's a CS guitar!

Twelvebar, this is genuinely bar-raising stuff. Respect! 8)

Interested to hear about the gold turning verdigris. So that gold is really copper? Well, I don't think we believed it was truly 24 carat... :lol:

In a different context I sometimes work with powdered pigments and metals and I strongly echo what you are saying about not getting them in your lungs. They'll never come out and they can be seriously carcinogenic. 10 years of cigarettes wrapped up in each breathful. Take care, people.

On which:
Twelvebar wrote:
this stuff gets everywhere, it is brutal to clean. Anyone who has tried to clean a pillowcase after entertaining some glittery late night talent from the bar knows what this is like, only this stuff is like 1000 times worse.

Yes: don't think that little digression was missed, young Twelvebar! So that's the kind of bar you run. Ah, your words paint a picture... [Wistful sigh] I guess on this one we shouldn't ask for photos?

Regarding Les Pauls. I know it ain't the one we're talking about, but one of my all time fave faded finishes is on the Bigsby-ised LP that Keith Richards owned in the '60s. Can't remember who has it now, but Guitarist magazine had some pictures a year or two back. Very nice - very Stradivarius!

BTW:

Is this the new Private Messaging on the Forum...?

Cheers - C


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Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 4:15 am
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Offtopic: Keiths 59 Burst

http://www.richardhenryguitars.com/keith.aspx

A private collector!!! damn! Is it alainlafrance?

BACK ON TOPIC (sorry 12b)

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Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 4:52 am
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Impulse7 wrote:
Keiths 59 Burst

http://www.richardhenryguitars.com/keith.aspx

A private collector!!! damn! Is it alainlafrance?

Ha - good find, thank you! It is just gorgeous, isn't it? And I knew Keith wasn't the only famous owner, but I had no idea it had been in quite so many distinguished hands. My, is it perhaps the single most celebrity-handled guitar in history, do you think...?

Don't think that is Alain's area of collecting - but I'd LOVE to be wrong on that! :D

Cheers - C

PS "Off-topic"? Wassat mean? Never heard of it... :lol:


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Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 6:12 am
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Ceri wrote:
But without doubt your silver is the best I've ever seen on a guitar: it hurt to see it covered up - or would have done if the final red didn't look so damn juicy! I want to bite into that Candy Apple! :D


Cheers - C

Someone isn't paying attention, not a single dollop f the silver was covered up, only the gold!!

Impulse, you got the crazy guy right. One of the BEST LP tones ever, IMO.
As much success as the band had after he left, I can't say I enjoyed them personally even close to as much. Green Manalishi--Monster tone much?

you mention the player in question, but woefully misdescribe his axe, so can't call it a goal, off the post, maybe you can pound in the rebound.

the legend is tied in to the Dixie dregs, but this player wasn't one of them, he was good friends with Steve Morse, though.

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Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 6:44 am
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Damn, Ok, keeping in mind that this is a strat thread. STRATS STRATS AWESOME SILVER PAINT AND STRATS.

Now names I mentioned:

Les Paul: Now I know the reason the guitars came out in Gold Top and Black were because Les thought Gold meant rich, and Black so you could see his hands whilst he played live. And I know he favoured those Les Paul Recording guitars. Found one of them with a nice burst indeed

Image

Brian Jones: Tragically died too young, but I can't for the life of me find a pic of him with a burst. He must have played one, he probably played keiths.

Randy Rhodes: When I think of randy I think of this

Image Which is a Jackson, which is made in the same factory as strats (back on topic for a sec).

or this

Image

No Burst there.....

Duane Allman: Ahhh I think I've stumbled on what I did wrong. Duane passed away in 1971. And his career spanned well before that time. Which means the only burst he ever could have played was the Original Sunburst finish from the guitars production from 1958-1960. Not what we'd call a tobacco burst (or desertburst....). So he played a what must have been a Sunburst... only it looked like this

Image

So my guess is you're going for something like the one above.

And finally, Mike Bloomfield:

Image

Also, wrong forum but

Image

Sonic duo... Coool :)

BACK TO STRATS!!!!

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Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 7:11 am
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Twelvebar wrote:
Someone isn't paying attention, not a single dollop f the silver was covered up, only the gold!!

Ah yes; peeled off, I should have said, shouldn't I? "Pay attention you naughty boys at the back!!" [Chalkboard rubber comes flying over and clips Ceri on the ear.]

Speaking of which: back on page one I was meaning to ask, how come your pinstriping tape adheres nicely around the corners and curves where mine most definitely wouldn't? This was mine:

Image

Looks like bare wood but in fact there's vinyl sealer on it, so it ain't a case of tape failing to stick to a porous surface.

I guess what I'm asking is; tell us about your pinstriping tape! Pretty nurdy, huh? :D

Cheers - C

PS The mysterious finish for the 12B LP - was that mentioned on an earlier thread many months ago by any chance? Is that where we (Impulse) should be hunting for an answer?

PPS I want Duane's shirt.


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Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 7:23 am
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Twelvebar wrote:
orvilleowner wrote:
... Kossof? Ronson?


Worthy choices, both, but I'm not sure their respective LP's were quite as distinctive, nor were they preserved by, as legend has it, his famous 'Dreg' of a friend sealing it up in a wall in his studio until the owner's daughter was old enough to inherit it.


I don't remember ever hearing a story like that. I guess that legend passed me by.

I'll admit that either an Allman or Bloomfield burst would be inspiring.

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Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 12:16 pm
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Quick question...... Could you show us how you hold the body when you spray it? Like a stick screwed into the neck socket or a hanging by a wire??? or ???

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Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 1:04 pm
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this is the first thread i've seen as i really don't have the patience to read the whole...but "procasticaster" is magnificent.... :)

And hope ya "MOLLY" is doing great......

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Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 1:48 pm
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OK so to address a couple things, it is indeed Duane's burst i like.

It is among the finest examples of a 'darkburst' story has it that during late '58 through part of '59 when Gibson was starting to spray the straight up Cherry bursts, they moved a guy from the archtops who didn't like the cherry burst. So he 'accidentally' added the more traditional Van Dyke brown to the cherry toner, and sprayed until that batch was used up. i have no idea if this is true, but I have always preferred the dark burst to any of the other Gibson bursts. the exception being the cherry ones that have had almost all the red fade out, and are either a lemon drop color, or the 'tea bursts'

I may have to hit some consignment shops to find a shirt like Duane's.
i have no plans to do a refret job and then pound the old frets into the back of the guitar to spell my name, like his though.

And after he died, apparently Twiggs Lyndon (ABB-guitar tech during the Duane era,) and Steve Morse say they sealed the guitar up in the wall of Steve' studio until Duane's daughter was old enough to inherit it, for fear of it growing legs.

for Ceri, i honestly spent an entire afternoon taping, untaping and retaping until I managed to get a clean and even tape job all around. When ever i got that little ripple, I would peel back and try again, slowly taping while running a finger along the edge to seal it. I discarded more tape than I used. i'm sure a practiced hand could have done it lickety split but I just kept redoing it until i was happy with it. i did find though, that it was much easier to keep a clean line when taping around convex, (or bulging out,) corners than around concave (or saddle shaped,) corners like yours. Stretching the tape slightly due to the convex corners seemed to pull the tape tighter and not affect adherence, but the crinkling or bunching effect from the concave corners seemed to lift the edge of the tape and leave those gaps. So I kept running my finger along the tape as i applied it, and it helped immensely.

oh and when I think Randy Rhoads the guitar that pops to mind is this:

Image

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Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 2:32 pm
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Twelvebar,

Really nice work on the guitar and on the thread. I'm looking forward to see it all polished up at the end. Very cool approach to getting the Candy Apple effect and I'm loving the stripes!8) Thanks for sharing!

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