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Post subject: Inferior Woods? Please Discuss.
Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 9:14 am
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We've all seen over and over again, threads and posts as to how MIM necks and bodies are STILL inferior to their US counterparts. Granted, in the past, with veneers, etc, there was certainly room for argument.

However, using for example, a 2006 MIM Standard Strat Upgrade or newer and a 2006 American Series (standard) Strat or newer for comparison, I'd like to hear some genuine evidence other than something somebody read or was told somewhere by someone, definitively verifying HOW, the aforementioned MIM Strat woods are inferior to their American counterparts.

Personally, I see no difference nowadays and I've owned many a Strat over my 40+ years of playing.

Please leave ALL hardware and perceived levels of build workmanship out of the equation. Again, I'm specifically talking about the quality of the wood ONLY from 2006 and beyond.

Oh, and just because certain cut of wood may be "prettier" than the next, doesn't necessarily mean said wood is better.

Discuss!


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Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:52 pm
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I have never heard of inferior wood. I know the MIM's use 3-5 piece bodys, and the MIA use 2-3. I think the actual wood is exactly the same


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Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 5:11 pm
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I do believe the wood is slightly inferior. While it is still the same variety of wood, the MIM's (especially the painted ones) use wood with less desirable graining.

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Post subject: eye opener
Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 5:20 pm
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wonder if there is anyway ,a person from fender could ,post us some iformation about this,, i;d be interested in what they would have to say--rock on Dave


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Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 12:17 pm
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Wood is wood, maple is maple, ash is ash etc. But the only thing that will make a mexican maple body different from an american maple body (putting build quality aside of course) is the american will definetly have the prettier wood (grain patterns and such) for use with transparent finishes. As far as sound goes, I'm not too sure about that. I don't think grain patterns etc. make a difference in sound, at least not to the point where the human ear could tell.

You've got all the flames, AAAAAAAAAAAAAA grade crap, birds eye etc., etc. Just for looks, nothing else.

Wood is wood and it should sound the same regardless of the quality of it. What does change the sound though is the build quality being used.

Bottom line: Type of wood for sound, grade of wood for looks.

That's the way I look at it.


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Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 3:56 pm
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Yup, that about covers it.

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Is that a mexican poncho
Or is that a sears poncho?
Hmmm...no foolin ...." FZ


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Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 10:30 am
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I think a factor in body wood has to do with how many pieces the body is made of. A one piece ash body will transfer sound vibrations differently than an ash body with 5 pieces glued together. The glue joints do not transfer vibrations in the same manner as one solid piece of wood.
It is true that the finer pieces of wood with prettier grain are used for transparent finishes, but sound-wise, it may sound the same as a less pretty piece of the same species. One of the reasons I have several Strats is one is an ash body, one is an alder body, and one is a solid mahogany body. Different wood=different sound. My ear can hear the difference, and so can yours. The type of finish used also can affect tone.

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Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 10:47 am
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Maybe glue does affect tone But not in a predictable way.

I've heard 2 piece alder bodies with gorgeous grain that were dead in your hands, and five piece basswood bodies that sang like birds.

Humans want control: we like to think we can predict everything about the physical world, because that's how our brains work (we want solutions, even if we have to make them up). But all this yak about which body wood sounds like what, how many glue joints you can have before tone "suffers," which finish sounds better... it's bunk. When you're talking about a solid body electric guitar, it just doesn't matter. Each guitar is a system and it's either a system that makes a pleasing sound or it isn't.

And most info about how electric guitars "work" that gets shared in guitar stores and online is pure superstition... a repeated tradition taken on faith.

I mean, where did everybody get the idea that glue stops resonance? Seriously, where did everybody get the information that convinced us that glue joints inhibit resonance? Because I'm here to tell you, they don't. Think about it... when laminated under pressure, how much glue do you think is really left in that joint? Do you imagine that a teensy, weensy bit of glue like that would actually prevent resonance from being transmitted between two pieces of wood?


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Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 11:03 am
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Why do you think the best acoustic guitars in the world are made with ONE piece tops? Because they transfer sound, and resonate better than laminates. It is a fact that the best sounding guitars are not made with laminated woods. Why has Martin used the same construction methods for years for their guitars. Because acoustic guitars rely on vibration and resonance to acheive a wonderful tone. It may not be as critical with solidbody electrics, but it is a factor, along with finish type, neck attachment, pickups, etc.

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Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 11:41 am
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Aren't the Mexican bodies still multi-pieces? Like up to 7 (and the translucent finishes are veneered)?

The necks are another matter entirely. I bought a Standard and a Fat Standard for their maple necks for my doubleneck project:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/orvilleowner/584559006/

the necks are as good as any maple necks I've seen. The only complaint would be that spacing on one of the nuts wasn't the greatest.

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Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 11:54 am
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paisley strat wrote:
Why do you think the best acoustic guitars in the world are made with ONE piece tops?


Because they're ACOUSTIC guitars. In that case, the top and body are the amplifier. (BTW, there are lots of great sounding acoustics that don't have one piece tops.) But a solid body electric guitar bears little sonic resemblance to an acoustic guitar.

Also, the Mexican bodies are not laminated any more, and in fact only were for a short time and only if they were transparent finished (like a burts). And that lamination doesn't kill tone, either.

But hey, don't let me ruin anybody's superstition. Keep trying to figure out which guitar will sound the best without playing them. :D


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Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 12:09 pm
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paisley strat wrote:
I think a factor in body wood has to do with how many pieces the body is made of. A one piece ash body will transfer sound vibrations differently than an ash body with 5 pieces glued together. The glue joints do not transfer vibrations in the same manner as one solid piece of wood.
It is true that the finer pieces of wood with prettier grain are used for transparent finishes, but sound-wise, it may sound the same as a less pretty piece of the same species. One of the reasons I have several Strats is one is an ash body, one is an alder body, and one is a solid mahogany body. Different wood=different sound. My ear can hear the difference, and so can yours. The type of finish used also can affect tone.


You are exactly right. The number of pieces glued together will make a difference and the thickness and type of finish will make a difference as well. At leasnt on lower gain settings where you can hear it. MIM uses Polyester and MIA is Polyurathane. Now I'm not saying that all 5 piece strats will sound worse than 2 or 3 piece. Wood isn't wood. Some will just resonate better and that is fact. You really just got to play them to find out for yourself which is the best resonating. Now if you going to play with humbuckers thought a Recto............who cares. With that much gain your not going to hear a slight nuance of a better wood or finish anywayl.


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Post subject:
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 12:12 pm
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Gravity Jim wrote:
Maybe glue does affect tone But not in a predictable way.

I've heard 2 piece alder bodies with gorgeous grain that were dead in your hands, and five piece basswood bodies that sang like birds.

Humans want control: we like to think we can predict everything about the physical world, because that's how our brains work (we want solutions, even if we have to make them up). But all this yak about which body wood sounds like what, how many glue joints you can have before tone "suffers," which finish sounds better... it's bunk. When you're talking about a solid body electric guitar, it just doesn't matter. Each guitar is a system and it's either a system that makes a pleasing sound or it isn't.

And most info about how electric guitars "work" that gets shared in guitar stores and online is pure superstition... a repeated tradition taken on faith.

I mean, where did everybody get the idea that glue stops resonance? Seriously, where did everybody get the information that convinced us that glue joints inhibit resonance? Because I'm here to tell you, they don't. Think about it... when laminated under pressure, how much glue do you think is really left in that joint? Do you imagine that a teensy, weensy bit of glue like that would actually prevent resonance from being transmitted between two pieces of wood?


It's not the glue that causing resonance issues. If you take a solid piece of wood and cut it into 5 pieces and glue it right back together it will be a more solid piece of wood since it is now 5 seperate pieces glued together. The wood is now stronger and won't resonate as well. For furniture this is a great thing to do but not guitars.


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Post subject:
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 12:20 pm
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I personally don't believe the number of pieces in a body makes much difference to the sound.

"Inferior" isn't a fair word to use. The economics of it are this: to sell the MIM guitars for less, they have to cost less to make. Labor cost is a big factor, but so is the price of the wood that gets used. Lower grade woods will cost less. A lower grade doesn't mean it's "junk" wood, however. It still makes a fine guitar body.

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Post subject:
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 1:10 pm
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Well, don't let me ruin anybody's superstitions.

But let me know if anybody ever has any actual evidence that this hypothesis is true, instead of just relying on whatever "everybody online" says.


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