+1!

Arjay

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"Here's why reliability is job one: A great sounding amp that breaks down goes from being a favorite piece of gear to a useless piece of crap in less time than it takes to read this sentence." -- BRUCE ZINKY

Paztor
Good morning. That was a very nice story that you wrote, and I appreciate your feelings on this subject. You don't really believe that all Strats are "three pieces of alder glued together just like the Mexicans" do you? You don't think that Fender loads up a truck with wood, pickups, wire, electronics, machine heads, etc and sends it down to be assembled in Mexico...do you? You aren't trying to get us to believe that you "Upgraded" your MIM with bridges, pickups, tuners, etc for "Barely over $600" are you? The stock MIM is over $600 to begin with, before you turn it into a "Story" guitar. If you do believe this...why not just get a "three pieces of alder glued together" Chinese Squire and upgrade it to the "Tone" you are after.

As I stated originally...if you like to tinker and modify and upgrade...please do so, and enjoy the project. You will end up with a "Story" guitar when your done though. If your goal is the "elusive" quest for "tone"... I would suggest that you invest your money in an Amplifier and not into MIM upgrades. Just my opinion.

As far as "resale value" which you also mention...no one is interested in buying your used modified MIM upgrade project guitar.

The bare pieces of a strat, even a squire, are all about the same. Maple on Alder/Ash/Poplar/Plywood... But its the electronics and other metal parts that really make the difference. Why else would Fender have a different bridge on American made guitars? Or use locking nuts on their deluxe? You are paying for more then just a piece of wood.....

_________________
"Epitaph on a blues musician’s tombstone: “I didn’t wake up this morning”" Davy Knowles


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jrom

let me put it this way. Am Standard Strats were not forged in the peaks of MT Doom to have some sort of magical property. I can mod a MIM guitar to give it more sustain than an AM Standard. I can mod a MIM guitar to give it a richer thicker tone, or a higher more trebly tone than an AM Standard. I can do this pretty inexpensively.

In the early 2000's the Am Standard's pickups were leaps and bounds better than the MIM's. In the newer MIM's the pickups are pretty darn good. I won't say that they are better than an AM Standard, but they are very high quality and can hold their own very well.

With that being said, in order for an American Standard to have the sound and feel that I crave (the sound that is in my head), I would still need to do some upgrades to the pickups and to the bridge. I would strip the back of the neck to a matte satin finish too.

Could the Fender Custom Shop do a better job? Absolutely! But it would cost a crazy amount of money. Might there be a Stock American Fender on a store shelf somewhere that would sound and feel better than my MIM? Quite possibly. Although it would have to have some pickups that are not just Alnico V's installed. And I will assure you that within 30 miles of my home, there are no Fenders under $2000 in stock at any music store that I would rather play than the one I built. I like the sound and feel more than the Eric Johnson and the Clapton that a local store has in stock.

Regardless of the quality or the nationality of the parts of my guitar, it feels and sounds more the way that I want it to than ANY strat at any store within 30 miles of my home. If Guitar Center wanted to trade me for a SRV signature, worth $2500, I'd trade in a second. Then I'd take the SRV home and play it for a while and sell it for $2500 so that I could recreate my MIM guitar I just traded and buy a DR. Z or a Little Chopper amp, and a new Taylormade Driver.

You left something important out of his quote, jromanov,
i.e. " there are no Fenders under $2000 in stock at any music store that I would rather play than the one I built '
Stop trying to be sneaky.

_________________
'08 Fender Am. Std. Jazz bass, maple fretboard, charcoal frost metallic finish
'10 Squier VM Jazz bass, maple fretboard, natural finish
Ampeg BA115
'09 MIM standard Strat, maple fretboard, sunburst finish
Fender Super Champ XD

You left something important out of his quote, jromanov,
i.e. " there are no Fenders under $2000 in stock at any music store that I would rather play than the one I built '
Stop trying to be sneaky by leaving out parts that invalidate your point. Quote the man properly.

_________________
'08 Fender Am. Std. Jazz bass, maple fretboard, charcoal frost metallic finish
'10 Squier VM Jazz bass, maple fretboard, natural finish
Ampeg BA115
'09 MIM standard Strat, maple fretboard, sunburst finish
Fender Super Champ XD

Bathead...I'm sure that Paztor appreciates your help here. But I could use some of your help as well. You say that I left out an important part of his quote to "invalidate" my point...I assume you meant to "validate" my point. I seem to have left out this part of his quote as well...

"There is an $1100 Am Strat at Guitar Center that I think feels and sounds amazing. I would still add a trem block, locking tuners, and at least an upgraded bridge pickup to make it do what I want it to do. In fact, I'd probably add a neck pickup too. The total cost would be $1400ish,"

I'm confused...is it $2000, is it $1100, is it $1400ish, is it $600....which quote would you like me to include to "Invalidate" my point. My quote of $999 for American Strats at Musicians friend is accurate, correct, and ready to ship.

I do appreciate your input, but I would respectfully request that you don't have to help me, the way you have helped Paztor to make a point. If you would like...I will include all of his confusing quote next time.

I couldn't help but notice that your avatar is a BASS guitar and you list a BASS guitar as your 1st piece of equipment. Please post something in the BASS forums that we can all discuss.

Well ... All I can say is the level of immaturity in your response is quite overwhelming. I am sorry, but I refuse to get into an argument with someone who refuses to behave like an adult.

_________________
'08 Fender Am. Std. Jazz bass, maple fretboard, charcoal frost metallic finish
'10 Squier VM Jazz bass, maple fretboard, natural finish
Ampeg BA115
'09 MIM standard Strat, maple fretboard, sunburst finish
Fender Super Champ XD

Bat

I am not avoiding Paztors point in any way...he say's he can modify a MIM Strat to be better than any Am Strat. This is just silly, but the people at the parts stores love guy's like him.

And I am certainly not debating you in any way...you will clearly know when I am. I don't mind you taking issue with my post...it is YOU that advertises yourself as a BASS player and I was merely suggesting that you might be more comfortable discussing your primary instrument of choice.

Immaturity? I have been playing, building, and collecting guitars for over 30 years. A small part of my collection includes over a dozen Fender guitars, and these (although wonderful pieces that I love) are the least expensive parts of my collection. I am merely trying to help Paztor get the best bang for his buck, and modifying MIM's is not the way to do this effectively.

Again and again I have clearly stated that if this is for fun, tinkering, hobby, or passing time...please have the greatest time doing this. Just remember that when your done you WILL have a STORY guitar, that no one will appreciate but paztor himself, and will NEVER perform like an Am Strat.

I'm sorry but I believe that last part of your statement is complete BS. As someone who owns/ or who has owned Custom Shop Fenders, American Fenders, vintage Fenders, Japanese Fenders, Mexican Fenders, Squiers etc.. A guitar with the right components and a decent setup tailored to your preferences will always out perform a more expensive guitar not tailored to your preferences.

Often what separates cheaper guitars from more expensive guitars is hardware, electronics, and attention to fine details, all of which can be remedied if you know what you're doing. In fact many cheaper guitars today have pretty decent wood already.

Also who cares if someone else thinks the guitar is special? What matters is that it plays like you want it and that you like it.

Yogi
First of all..Thanks for writing...I always find these conversations to be enlightening. I'm glad that you think the last statement is BS. It kinda say's that you agree with the rest of the statements, and that is refreshing at least.

If you have the opportunity to take one of your "Custom Shop Fenders"..."American Fenders"...or "Vintage Fenders", and "tailor" it to "your preferences" You will have successfully de-valued, de-stroyed, and de-interested anyone but yourself with what you have accomplished. Look at any add, anywhere, from anyone selling a CS, AM, or V guitar, and the first line will always read "All Original"....not "tailored to your preferences"

The only person interested in the tailored guitar is the tailor himself. Again...if you would like to do this with an inexpensive model such as the MIM, please have a great time doing it. Please don't break my heart by hacking up some quality guitar.

Sadly, and I repeat, sadly....the amplifier has a much much greater effect on the sound reproduced by the guitar. If you screw up the amp settings, or use a cheap amp, the guitar sounds like crap. If you use a quality amp set up properly you will have a great sounding guitar. This is just an un-debatable fact. When you finish tailoring your sound by changing everything on the MIM to higher quality parts....let me plug it in for you and I will show you how crappy it can actually sound. We can make your CS sound just as crappy if you like. Everyone HATES this fact when it comes to solid body electrics, but the AMP is completely in charge.

This is just my opinion, based on more than 30 years of playing, a collection of over 40 pieces, a home studio with 10 different Amps, years of playing in bands, a professional guitarist son graduate of Berklee College Of Music, and of coarse your understanding of BS.

Please please remember...this is just for FUN...I apologize if anyone is offended. My goal was to help paztor spend his money wisely. Nice guitars are expensive, and we aspire to have lots of them...."tailored" guitars cost a bunch of money and none of us really want one of them.

Well not everyone buys a guitar with the intent to sell it later on down the road, and personally resale doesn't really play a factor to me when I am deciding to buy the guitar. I never said that the amp didn't have a very significant role in the sound, if anything you are just making my point for me. A mim setup to your preferences through a top notch amp will sound sweet. Yeah if you care about resale I wouldn't buy an MIM and load it with parts, you aren't going to get jack for it if you decide to sale, the same is true for MIA

$600 may be the list price for an MIM but they're not selling for that high a price. I got brand new MIM last month from Guitar Center for $424 delivered to my door.


Brian

jrom

I'm sorry that I started such an argument. You apparently don't understand what I am saying though.

I play some heavy blues and some rock stuff. With MY style of play and MY amps and effects, MY music sounds better to ME with MY MIM guitar than with a $1000 American Standard Strat, a $1400 John Mayer Signature, a $2200 Clapton Signature or a $2400 Eric Johnson.

TO ME.

I also think that the people who hear me play with my style through my equipment would agree that I get a FANTASTIC sound out of my guitar and amp setup. If I played an unmodded AM strat or a Squier or a Clapton Signature, I would not sound as good as I do through my equipment through my guitar.

Music and tone is NOT math. They are very subjective. YOU may believe that the most expensive Fender guitar will provide the best tone. But the tone that YOU prefer is only up to YOU. If you think that the more a Fender costs, the better it is ... period. Than you are the guy that Guitar Center LOVES.

The MIM guitar that I modded may well not sound the way YOU want it. But it sounds closer to what I want than ANY other guitar I have been able to find. ANY OTHER GUITAR. ANY OTHER FENDER OR LES PAUL that I have ever played.

The price does not make a guitar better, neither does the name brand or the signature series that you are playing. My fingers and equipment can not make an off-the-shelf American Strat sound as close to the way that I want it to as MY MIM strat unless I mod that Am Standard Strat (which I could do, but it would cost me FAR MORE MONEY). The off-the-shelf Am Standard Strat's that I have played (which are numerous) do not have as much sustain, or the amount of tone and character and grittiness that my MIM strat has after the mods that I have done. I am not claiming it is better for YOU or better for Clapton or anyone else. It is better for ME to play through MY equipment for the style of music that I play.

I will also add that because of the relic-ing and sanding that I have done to the body and neck, it feels amazing. My MIM feels better TO ME than ANY guitar that I played at the Guitar Center or American Music Supply or the other mom and pop places where I played Americ Strats, MIM's, G&L's.

Another guitarist who plays my guitar might not like the way it feels. A Jazz guitarist might not like how my guitar sounds with their style of play through their amps and effects. A metalhead would not like how my guitar sounds with their style through their effects. WHO CARES?!

I could have spent $999 on an Am Standard Strat and put $200+ of mods into it and it would have come out great. But I put $399 into my MIM and $200+ of mods and it came out great. I don't need it to sound any better than it sounds. It sounds better than ANY guitar I have ever played through my equipment with my style. I probably could have gotten the AM Standard to sound just as good, but I would have had to do about the same amount of mods. It might have even sounded better because of the upgraded wires and whatever else an AM standard has that the MIM does not. But I can't imagine it would be worth $600 of my money more TO ME.

If a guitar sounds and feels better than another guitar TO ME, it is worth more TO ME. I don't care what Clapton or Mayer thinks of how they sound with their equipment through my guitar. They don't play what I play. They play Clapton and Mayer. It wouldn't phase me for a second if they hated my guitar or if Leo Fender himself said that he hated my guitar. Their opinions don't make my music sound better or worse.

If I plugged an off-the-shelf AM strat into my equipment and performed for a group of people, it would not sound as gritty or have as much sustain as my MIM modded guitar. Those are facts. My style of music calls for grittiness and sustain. The JB Jr Duncan Pickup that I have in my bridge is gritty. The relic-ing and upgrades give my guitar more sustain than the Am Standars that Guitar Center had. These are quantifiable facts. When I play Catfish Blues I like how it sounds through my guitar and my setup FAR more than how it sounds through an AM Standard with stock pickups through my setup. It's gritty and it rings and sings. It makes you feel like something you would play in a humid sweaty house on the delta on a hot day. (this is the picture that is in my head when I play Catfish Blues.)

I play guitar for the music and the sound that comes out of my guitar, equipment and into my ears. I am a Pastor and have little money to spend on guitars and amps. I can't imagine that any great musician cares, even a little about what label is on their amp, guitar, strings or pedals. They want sound. I would be willing to say that between what I paid for my amp, effects and guitar and mods; I have a great sound that I LOVE. If I went to guitar center and tried to recreate or beat this sound with off-the-shelf equipment, I am not sure if I could for ANY amount of money. But I guarantee that it would cost well more than 3-4 times as much as what I spent.

And this is the message that I was trying to convey to the original person who posted this thread. If you can't get your sound out of an off-the-shelf guitar for less than $1000, make it yourself. You will save money and you will have an amazing guitar that YOU love that sounds and feels the way that you want.

I'm still not sure I know a musician that cares about their sound AND cares about the resale value or the name on the label. I'm not a great musician, but give me what works over what looks cool or holds resale value any day. If a Squier and a Pignose are the sound you want, buy 'em and play 'em.

It's MUSIC.