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Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 7:55 am
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Ceri wrote:
fhopkins wrote:
Hello Kozy!! You definitely have the right man (Ceri) willing and able to help you in correctly putting this body and neck together. Please listen to him and you can't go wrong.

Gosh, I listen to him and I go wrong all the time! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Kind thanks though. :)

Cheers - C


:lol: Yes, it's been known to rarely happen ,but you always find a way of fixing and learning from your mistakes and teach us all here on the forum in the process!! :wink:


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Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 7:57 am
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fhopkins wrote:
Ceri wrote:
fhopkins wrote:
Hello Kozy!! You definitely have the right man (Ceri) willing and able to help you in correctly putting this body and neck together. Please listen to him and you can't go wrong.

Gosh, I listen to him and I go wrong all the time! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Kind thanks though. :)

Cheers - C


:lol: Yes, it's been known to rarely happen ,but you always find a way of fixing and learning from your mistakes and teach us all here on the forum in the process!! :wink:

Ah: making mistakes and desperately trying to learn from them. Now there I AM your man! :lol:

Cheers - C


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Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 8:15 am
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Ceri wrote:
Ah: making mistakes and desperately trying to learn from them. Now there I AM your man! :lol:

Cheers - C


I think that's the only way to learn. I'm absolutely convinced of it infact. Even on my apprenticeship, I learned by mistakes. Despite being constantly monitored.

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Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 9:17 am
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Ceri – I’ve gone over your latest offerings. THANKS so much for your input. I’d have probably bolted that neck on by now if not for the good info you (and Andy) have supplied.

I’m actually not home right now, so I do not have access to the parts. Based on memory I’ll try best I can, to address some of the issues you’ve brought up.

Ceri wrote:
[…What you have got to do is make sure the floor of that pocket is flat. You spoke of a hump somewhere in it. This has to be addressed. If not with a router then it can be done with a chisel, used with the flat side laid flat on the bottom of the cavity and slid up and down to take out any irregularities (a one inch blade is an ideal size for this job). This will only work if your chisel is seriously sharp! Take a lot of time sharpening the chisel and read up online on how to do that if you are not sure.

Actually the floor is flat, it’s just on a slight incline of 1mm or less going upward toward the pickup cavity. So no chiseling on the floor seems to be called for, at this point. The hump is along the wall nearest the neck pickup. How I deal with this depends on how or whether I build up material at the neck cavity...

Ceri wrote:
[...Or make friends with your local sushi chef and get him/her to do it. I was originally shown how to sharpen blades by a sushi chef: he uses a knife that he claims cost £15,000 / $22,500 (honestly!) and he says he spends half an hour sharpening it for every half hour of use he gets out of it. Wow.

Double wow! Making friends with one of these guys can’t hurt, if only for making sure he’s keeping that sharp blade on the sushi, as it were…

I wrote: The distance from the innermost edge of the neck cavity to the 6-point screw side edge of the trem cavity is 184.5mm. This accounts for the roughly 1/8-inch (2.5mm) gap I estimated in the neck cavity...
Ceri wrote:
Matter o' fact the manufacturing inaccuracy again works in your favor here. If the gap was too large you would have extra routing to do to bring the trem cavity forward. As it is it just means that with the neck in the right place the bridge screws will be a couple of mil closer to the trem cavity. Probably not a worry in this case…
…What you must do is get the neck working right in its pocket FIRST. That means snugly seated right up to the end of the cavity and with any fit issues sorted. Then you drill your bolt holes in the body. Since your neck is already drilled we have to work in the wrong order with that – but don't worry, it is do-able.


I’m in total agreement with this. It’s clear after everything I’ve read here that the most important starting point is that neck joint.

A couple issues are cropping up when I snug that neck all the way into the neck cavity. If I work with the measurements Andy gave me and some of Ceri’s numbers, using the pickguard as a rough guide, this pushes the trem unit further toward the butt end of the body, deeper into the trem cavity, causing the block to butt up against the back of the cavity restricting is pivot movement. Secondly, moving the trem unit too far back positions the would be trem screw holes too close to the cavity hole and exposes the trem hole just above the tremolo arm hole. This leads me back to sliding the neck away from the near inside edge of the cavity a bit to better position the trem unit.

So it’s going back to fixing this area first before I can proceed. I also agree that I cannot position the bridge holes until I have the neck in its correct location. But that location seems to be anywhere from 2.5mm to 1/8-inch away from the inside edge of the current neck cavity.

Ceri wrote:
…for the record I’ve just been and measured a 2005 American Strat neck and at the 21st fret the depth between the surface of the fingerboard and the back of the heel is 25.95mm / 1.022”.

Just in case it is useful the width of that same neck, treble side to bass again at the 21st fret, is 55.81mm / 2.197”.


Thanks for this and all the other info. I will compare my neck’s measurement

OK, Gents – It’s back to my real job. I hope to have a peek at the gear pile tonight.

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Epi USA Texan '64 RI signed by Paul McCartney
'73 Fender Mustang
Gibson LP Deluxe RI '69
Fender Active Jazz Bass
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Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 9:24 am
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kozy814 wrote:
Ceri – I’ve gone over your latest offerings. THANKS so much for your input. I’d have probably bolted that neck on by now if not for the good info you (and Andy) have supplied.

I’m actually not home right now, so I do not have access to the parts. Based on memory I’ll try best I can, to address some of the issues you’ve brought up.

Ceri wrote:
[…What you have got to do is make sure the floor of that pocket is flat. You spoke of a hump somewhere in it. This has to be addressed. If not with a router then it can be done with a chisel, used with the flat side laid flat on the bottom of the cavity and slid up and down to take out any irregularities (a one inch blade is an ideal size for this job). This will only work if your chisel is seriously sharp! Take a lot of time sharpening the chisel and read up online on how to do that if you are not sure.

Actually the floor is flat, it’s just on a slight incline of 1mm or less going upward toward the pickup cavity. So no chiseling on the floor seems to be called for, at this point. The hump is along the wall nearest the neck pickup. How I deal with this depends on how or whether I build up material at the neck cavity...

Ceri wrote:
[...Or make friends with your local sushi chef and get him/her to do it. I was originally shown how to sharpen blades by a sushi chef: he uses a knife that he claims cost £15,000 / $22,500 (honestly!) and he says he spends half an hour sharpening it for every half hour of use he gets out of it. Wow.

Double wow! Making friends with one of these guys can’t hurt, if only for making sure he’s keeping that sharp blade on the sushi, as it were…

I wrote: The distance from the innermost edge of the neck cavity to the 6-point screw side edge of the trem cavity is 184.5mm. This accounts for the roughly 1/8-inch (2.5mm) gap I estimated in the neck cavity...
Ceri wrote:
Matter o' fact the manufacturing inaccuracy again works in your favor here. If the gap was too large you would have extra routing to do to bring the trem cavity forward. As it is it just means that with the neck in the right place the bridge screws will be a couple of mil closer to the trem cavity. Probably not a worry in this case…
…What you must do is get the neck working right in its pocket FIRST. That means snugly seated right up to the end of the cavity and with any fit issues sorted. Then you drill your bolt holes in the body. Since your neck is already drilled we have to work in the wrong order with that – but don't worry, it is do-able.


I’m in total agreement with this. It’s clear after everything I’ve read here that the most important starting point is that neck joint.

A couple issues are cropping up when I snug that neck all the way into the neck cavity. If I work with the measurements Andy gave me and some of Ceri’s numbers, using the pickguard as a rough guide, this pushes the trem unit further toward the butt end of the body, deeper into the trem cavity, causing the block to butt up against the back of the cavity restricting is pivot movement. Secondly, moving the trem unit too far back positions the would be trem screw holes too close to the cavity hole and exposes the trem hole just above the tremolo arm hole on the bridge unit. This leads me back to sliding the neck away from the near inside edge of the cavity a bit to better position the trem unit.

So it’s going back to fixing the neck cavity area first before I can proceed. I also agree that I cannot position the bridge holes until I have the neck in its correct location. But that location seems to be anywhere from 2.5mm to 1/8-inch away from the inside edge of the current neck cavity.

Ceri wrote:
…for the record I’ve just been and measured a 2005 American Strat neck and at the 21st fret the depth between the surface of the fingerboard and the back of the heel is 25.95mm / 1.022”.

Just in case it is useful the width of that same neck, treble side to bass again at the 21st fret, is 55.81mm / 2.197”.


Thanks for this and all the other info. I will compare my neck’s measurement

OK, Gents – It’s back to my real job. I hope to have a peek at the gear pile tonight.

_________________
'78 Fender Stratocaster
Epi USA Texan '64 RI signed by Paul McCartney
'73 Fender Mustang
Gibson LP Deluxe RI '69
Fender Active Jazz Bass
Guild GADm20e Acoustic Guitar
Epi Casino RI
Gretsch Pro Jet w/Bigsby
And My Frankenstein-O-Caster


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Post subject:
Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 9:49 am
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Edit -- not sure why it double posted my last entry :?.

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Epi USA Texan '64 RI signed by Paul McCartney
'73 Fender Mustang
Gibson LP Deluxe RI '69
Fender Active Jazz Bass
Guild GADm20e Acoustic Guitar
Epi Casino RI
Gretsch Pro Jet w/Bigsby
And My Frankenstein-O-Caster


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Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 9:51 am
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it was a good post :) why not post it twice :p

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Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 9:54 am
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kozy814 wrote:
A couple issues are cropping up when I snug that neck all the way into the neck cavity. If I work with the measurements Andy gave me and some of Ceri’s numbers, using the pickguard as a rough guide, this pushes the trem unit further toward the butt end of the body, deeper into the trem cavity, causing the block to butt up against the back of the cavity restricting is pivot movement. Secondly, moving the trem unit too far back positions the would be trem screw holes too close to the cavity hole and exposes the trem hole just above the tremolo arm hole. This leads me back to sliding the neck away from the near inside edge of the cavity a bit to better position the trem unit.

So it’s going back to fixing this area first before I can proceed. I also agree that I cannot position the bridge holes until I have the neck in its correct location. But that location seems to be anywhere from 2.5mm to 1/8-inch away from the inside edge of the current neck cavity.

I follow fully what you are saying.

One way or another you have to make the distance between the trem route and the neck pocket right - or the instrument will never intonate. You can do that either by rebuilding the neck pocket or working on the trem cavity. If you are OK with the shimmed effect the incline in the pocket is giving you then I'd leave well alone, because rebuilding the curved end of the pocket is tricky to say the least and will also throw the neck perhaps further than you'd wish from the tail of the guitar.

And because working in the trem cavity is easier.

If I may take the liberty of cropping one of your photos:
Image

What I think happened here is that the maker worked by doing the cavity on the back of the body first, and then locating the front positions from it. That method always seemed odd to me, but respectable builders sometimes work that way - Ron Kirn for example. So...

However, the merest glance at that photo shows us about half a dozen things wrong with that cavity. Most obviously the crooked tail end of the block space; also the over routing of the neck end corners; and rather critically the entire cavity looks as if it is skewed clockwise. I also strongly suspect the whole thing is too near the neck.

After doing that the maker has travelled round the front and compounded the errors by continuing from this badly made trem cavity. The rest of the placements were never going to be right after that.

Your trem block is banging up against the back of its cavity because it has simply been routed too short, as well as wildly crooked. There simply is no way around that other than to carve it out further, whether with a router or by hand. Either way is possible, though obviously the router will give the more professional looking job. It would take a fine craftsman indeed to imitate the curved corners of the cavity by hand.

If you have access to a router then you could either make a template the way Andy has shown or buy one from Stew-Mac:

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/Speci ... lates.html

No matter what you do juggling the bridge and neck around there just is no way to avoid sorting out the back of the block cavity. I'm afraid you have to take a deep breath and go to...

If you are unfamiliar with routers please, please read all the safety advice Andy gave on his thread - and then think about leaving that bit to someone else if possible. You need all your fingers for playing! :)

If rebuilding is required anywhere on the guitar let it be the front (pickup side) of the top of the bridge cavity, round the front of the guitar. That is the easiest spot for adding wood and the place it will show least.

However, I'd want to be convinced it is necessary first. Try this: put the neck snug into its cavity and clamp it in place (with padding to prevent the clamp denting the wood or hurting the neck). Now measure 25 1/2 inches from the front (fingerboard side) of the nut, and place the bridge with the breaking point of the top e string saddle in that spot. Like this:
Image

Now pencil some dots through the screw holes, like this:
Image

Then take a photo and let us see where those dots end up, please. That'll show how close to the cavity the bridge screws will really come and you and we can make our judgements accordingly.

Be aware, there is more to correctly placing the bridge than this! We'll cover that later...

All for now. You'd better give your employer some of your time... :wink:

Cheers - C


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Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:02 am
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This really is a good read!

Kozy, Few! I am so glad you didn’t make any alterations following my initial advice! I’d mentally made the assumption that the neck cavity was too long (should be 3in from edge to hump in this case!). Looking back I reckon the best bit of advice I gave you was to wait for Ceri! :lol:

I only really have experience of my own mistakes that I’ve made on the bodies I’ve built. I can’t say that I’ve ever had to sort out a body that someone else built badly, so I’m looking forward to watching You and Ceri hunting out and rectifying the mistakes on this one!

There’s the Right way, the Wrong way and the Big Hairy way. I can't say i'd recommend the latter two :lol: :lol: :wink:

:D

Enjoy!

Andy

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Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:17 am
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Andybighair wrote:
This really is a good read!

Kozy, Few! I am so glad you didn’t make any alterations following my initial advice! I’d mentally made the assumption that the neck cavity was too long (should be 3in from edge to hump in this case!). Looking back I reckon the best bit of advice I gave you was to wait for Ceri! :lol:

I only really have experience of my own mistakes that I’ve made on the bodies I’ve built. I can’t say that I’ve ever had to sort out a body that someone else built badly, so I’m looking forward to watching You and Ceri hunting out and rectifying the mistakes on this one!

There’s the Right way, the Wrong way and the Big Hairy way. I can't say i'd recommend the latter two :lol: :lol: :wink:

:D

Enjoy!

Andy


This is a good read -- I wish the news was a bit better for me :lol:

I really want to do this the right way. Not sure that wholesale reworking of the tremolo cavity is something I'm going to be up for :shock:

I'll run a quick diagnostic, per Ceri's notes and report back what I find :D

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Epi USA Texan '64 RI signed by Paul McCartney
'73 Fender Mustang
Gibson LP Deluxe RI '69
Fender Active Jazz Bass
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Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:33 am
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Kozy and Andy - and anyone else. Let's put our heads together and share our thoughts on the neck pocket, cos that kinda determines which end of the body the remedial work takes place.

I've just taken another tour through the AndyBigHair build thread and I bet the maker of the Kozy-bod produced his routing templates the same way - though not so skillfully. The reason I'm thinking that is clear if you look at the neck pocket on my 2005 Am Strat:
Image

What we see there is the same squared off end to the pocket and the same corners where the router has moved in producing the shape they call "mouse ears" (after Mickey, obviously). The point of that generic modern shape is that the positioning of the neck is determined only by the middle of the far end of the pocket, not by any fit issues that might occur along the length of the traditional curve.

I find it aesthetically displeasing - but of course it functions perfectly successfully. It means the end of the pocket doesn't fit the heel of the neck tightly, but that is OK so long as a well fitting pickguard covers the corner gaps. So happens, that aspect is excellent on my 2005:
Image

(Pretty Strat, huh? :) )

So what I'm suggesting: apart from the inclined floor of the cavity (how on earth did that happen?) there's probably nothing intrinsically wrong with the neck pocket. So, if the "mouse ear" shape doesn't offend too much then best to leave well alone and make necessary adjustments elsewhere - where it is easier to add and remove wood?

Whatchathink, y'all?

Cheers - C

PS Dunno about anyone else, but I love this stuff! Thank you for the thread. :D


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Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 1:49 pm
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That is one nice lookin' strat you have there. Love that color.

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Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 1:57 pm
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I too very much enjoy this sort of thing!

I have to say I’ve not come across a “Mickey” neck slot but in the back of my mind I’m sure I’ve read something about it here before.

With this new found knowledge fully absorbed I agree, if there is nothing wrong with the neck slot (apart from the naked ascetics which as mentioned will be hidden) then the bridge is the place to look for the solution.

Kozy, you mentioned how nice the grain was, kind of makes me think you’re planning to give this body a natural finish? If so, we need to come up with some way of shifting the bridge down 1/8” without any noticeable repairs.

Now the Big Hairy way would be to hack a bloody great chunk out and put a nicer bit back in! :D But that’s quite a lot of extra work. I think I’ll wait and see what your diagnostic reveals.

Great pics by the way. The detail you’ve give us really makes this fun!

BTW: Nice strat Mr C (why do i think of heavy artillery when i see that :wink:)

Andy

Edit: Thanks for all the kind words guys!

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Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 2:17 pm
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Ceri -- That is a beautiful Strat. And the mouse ear neck cavity does make more sense now.

OK -- So what I did was rounded up my gear and placed it all together on the table. With the neck snugged in place in the route, I placed the trem unit on and measured 25.5 inches on the D string saddle...

Image

As you can see I have a small bit of the trem cavity hole peeking out behind the trem bar hole on the bridge. So what i decided to do was carefully place the loaded pick guard on the guitar without moving the neck or bridge -- took a couple tries :D . I was bummed to find out that the electronics well is also mis-routed :cry:

[img][img]http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee34/Mercury7Music/cav.jpg[/img]

So right now I'm thinking this body is one more swing from a strike out. So I sent and email to Kurt at Rondo Music (where I bought this thing):

--------

Hello Kurt,

Last week I purchased one of your SX SST unfinished ash bodies. Without drilling any holes or making and modification to the body, I've been having some trouble with the geometry of the pre-routed cavities.

It seems that the neck joint is either too large (long) or the tremolo cavity improperly positioned to correctly mount the neck and hardware assembly if I were to position everything precisely into the cavities as routed. If I snug the neck into the neck cavity, the geometry or distance between the D string bridge saddle and the fretboard side inside edge of the nut would be insufficient for the guitar to set up properly. I'm not against slightly adjusting the position of the neck or installation of any of my components to make the body work. But I'm ill equipped to make major carpentry or routing modifications to this body in order to make it function properly.

I assume these are the bodies used to fabricate the SX guitars sold on the Rondo site. Is there a template or plans of some kind that can be used guide me on how to properly install the neck and bridge components to insure this guitar will be able to intonate and stay in tune.

Please advise.


---------

Fixing both cavities is over the top in terms of what I can do myself with this body. Much more than I bargained for, my instinct says I should just return this slab and find something better to work with. I will confer with my Pop, the wood model maker and see what he thinks.

Also, let's see what Kurt at Rondo has to say...
:(

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'78 Fender Stratocaster
Epi USA Texan '64 RI signed by Paul McCartney
'73 Fender Mustang
Gibson LP Deluxe RI '69
Fender Active Jazz Bass
Guild GADm20e Acoustic Guitar
Epi Casino RI
Gretsch Pro Jet w/Bigsby
And My Frankenstein-O-Caster


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Post subject:
Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 2:50 pm
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Hi Kozy: it's a good email. In all seriousness, while some of us get a buzz from wrestling with this sort of thing it is not what you expect from a product you paid money for, even if not at a premium price.

That photo of the rear trem cavity should get you your money back regardless of all the rest. I don't know the gentleman in question and wish him no ill will. But draw his attention to this thread why not? It's a banged to rights case for a full refund including postage, or my name's not Cassius Clay.

This thread is doing the gentleman's reputation no favors. He'll want to put that right by showing you some fine customer care, for sure.

Good luck - C

PS And friendly greetings and good wishes to Kurt at Rondo Music, if you're looking in, sir. :)


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