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Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 12:48 pm
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Oh my goodness golly gosh. You abandon the Forum for a few days (funeral, wedding anniversary, yadda yadda) and look how it moves on. Missed the new location for this story at first, but now I've found it and am up to speed... where to start?
Andybighair wrote:
If your carpentry skills are up to it, I reckon there's a couple of ways to sort out it out. You could rout/ chisel out the hump then pull a Ceri and build up the gap with layers of veneer as expertly demonstrated in this thread: (hope Ceri doesn't mind this little plug)

http://www.fender.com/community/forums/ ... hp?t=17948

If you don't have a router the you could mark out the new neck placement and carefully chisel and sand back to fit. If you do have a router you could make a neck template the same way I made my inlay template and re-route the neck slot. Just make sure everything lines up with your bridge placement.

Ceri doesn't mind the plug at all; in fact he's deeply honored. :)

With great modesty, may I suggest you take a stroll through the first half of that thread Andy linked to? Absolutely not because I'm any sort of Jedi master at this stuff but simply because I already encountered there many of the issues you seem to be facing with this body. It might help with ideas.

Regarding the neck cavity... oh dear. Well, for starters, it's curved end is routed to suit either a Strat or a Tele style neck, which is why it is flattened like that. So long as the nearest point to the bridge is the right distance from the trem cavity then it doesn't really matter and I wouldn't bother rebuilding it. (Well I would, but...)

The key thing is whether the tailward end of that cavity is in the right place or not. You need to measure from the bridge-most end of the cavity to the near side of the trem-block cavity - as illustrated here on my Fiesta '57 (which I've just been pulling apart for your benefit):
Image

That distance should be 187mm / 7 3/8". If it is then the heel of the neck is going to be in the right place - once it sits snug inside the pocket. More on that later.

Next, the depth of the pocket. Over the years I've measured all my Fender bodies and a few others in detail - no doubt because I have no life. Fender are consistent in this spec: their neck cavity is always 17mm / 43/64" deep. Anything else: you will have bad, bad problems come setup time.

You say yours is 46/64" at the far end and 44/64" at the bridge end. Oh dear. That is too deep.

Frankly, you ain't going to sort this without a router, unless you are a very good carpenter (within which case you don't need our help). You've first got to use a very short router bit with a 3/8" diameter and a 1/4" bearing collar on the shank to follow the existing sides of the cavity, and a flat cutter end to machine the bottom of that cavity level. If you are up to that, do it. If not, find someone you are really confident can do it and ask them. They will be very unlikely to have the right router bit: you can buy them cheaply on Ebay. Don't get anything larger than 3/8" because it won't go into the corners.

If all else fails, you can buy the correct router bit and a neck pocket jig from Stew-Mac. They will last you the rest of your guitar building life - a small investment:

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/Speci ... ender.html

(They link to the router cutter further down the same page.)

Alternatively, if you have a Dremel and the Dremel router base I guess you could attempt the same thing, though in that case I wouldn't use a Dremel router cutter because it will get out of control and wreck the sides of the pocket in the blink of an eye. I'd use one of the small circular grinding heads instead. Set it to the right depth and very, very carefully sculpt the base of the pocket flat and level to the deeper of your two measurements. Very tricky to get right.

Then you have to build the floor of the pocket back up to the right depth again using layers of veneer as I did on the first page of that thread Andy linked to. That is tedious and exacting work - but I'm proof that it can be done! :D

Once you've done all that you may need to adjust the sides of the pocket so that the neck will go all the way in and its butt end touch the bridge end of the cavity. Let's cross that bridge when we need to.

And shall we get on to the trem-cavity after all of that? If you can't get the neck pocket right the rest is meaningless...

Or you could send the body back to the Ebay seller you must have bought it from, get your money back on a dud product and then buy a decent body from one of many inexpensive sources (Mighty Mite, Stew-Mac, WD Music, Allparts, etc).

That's what I'd do. Maybe... :wink:

Good luck - C


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Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 1:19 pm
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Ceri wrote:
Oh my goodness golly gosh. You abandon the Forum for a few days (funeral, wedding anniversary, yadda yadda) and look how it moves on. Missed the new location for this story at first, but now I've found it and am up to speed...

(Big chunk removed)

Or you could send the body back to the Ebay seller you must have bought it from, get your money back on a dud product and then buy a decent body from one of many inexpensive sources (Mighty Mite, Stew-Mac, WD Music, Allparts, etc).

That's what I'd do. Maybe... :wink:

Good luck - C


Ceri! Return it! Nah, we need some adventure, it wouldn't be much of a thread without challange... Now I suggest this young, "bloke" is it?, give it a go himself. If all else fails, the I say Ceri should carry on this man's work! :P

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Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 1:30 pm
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There you go Kozy mate! I reckon Ceri's your man here and he even dismantled his 57 strat to show you! How cool is that!

Quality :D

Man, this forum rules!

Andy

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Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 2:39 pm
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OK...Oh boy! Do I have some info to chomp on here :lol:

First off, Ceri -- thanks for dismantling the '57 for my benefit.

And thanks for the info 8) . I'm gonna pour thru it like a good novel and put my gear on the table with the measuring tools to take a real good at this thing.

Upon looking this over this latest batch of data, I'm in deep water, but maybe not over my head. Meaning it does not look hopeless at this point. (BTW, FYI -- I bought this body at Rondo Music).

Wish I could look at it all tonight, but it'll have to wait until tomorrow. I'll certainly report my findings.

Cheers! and Thanks!

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Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 4:10 pm
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Andybighair wrote:
Ceri's your man here and he even dismantled his 57 strat to show you! How cool is that!

Ooo - though we mustn't run away with the wrong idea. It's a CIJ '57, not an actual fifty-seven '57. Don't want to be done under the Trades Description Act... :lol: (That red Strat modelled for a bunch of other photos too, which we'll get to in due course if they turn out to be useful...)

Kozy, if you decide to keep the bod and work it through, then total respect to you! Take a glance at Mr Kong's thread for inspiration, cos that was a gentleman who was not too sure of the whole thing when he got started and I think we'd all agree has raised his game and is playing a blinder! (So unlike some football teams we can all think of...)

And if you're serious about it and want to re-route those cavities (including that crooked back one) then the early pages of Andy's thread are as good as you'll find on how to make accurate templates. And get some hints on how to turn little mishaps into inspired improvements!!!

(It's getting so we really don't need to look beyond the pages of our own Forum, isn't it? 8) )

Can't wait to see where this thread goes. Where's my beer and pizza...?

Cheers - C


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Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 6:21 pm
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Ceri wrote:
Andybighair wrote:
Ceri's your man here and he even dismantled his 57 strat to show you! How cool is that!

Ooo - though we mustn't run away with the wrong idea. It's a CIJ '57, not an actual fifty-seven '57. Don't want to be done under the Trades Description Act... :lol: (That red Strat modelled for a bunch of other photos too, which we'll get to in due course if they turn out to be useful...)

Kozy, if you decide to keep the bod and work it through, then total respect to you! Take a glance at Mr Kong's thread for inspiration, cos that was a gentleman who was not too sure of the whole thing when he got started and I think we'd all agree has raised his game and is playing a blinder! (So unlike some football teams we can all think of...)

And if you're serious about it and want to re-route those cavities (including that crooked back one) then the early pages of Andy's thread are as good as you'll find on how to make accurate templates. And get some hints on how to turn little mishaps into inspired improvements!!!

(It's getting so we really don't need to look beyond the pages of our own Forum, isn't it? 8) )

Can't wait to see where this thread goes. Where's my beer and pizza...?

Cheers - C



Well, I can't promise the inspired effort that Kong has put forth. But I will say, If this looks within my reach I will go for it. My main objective is to have a finished body that will work with my neck, hardware and awesome vintage pickups.

I'm going to try and spend some time with this pile o' parts this week. And I'm sure I will have questions -- If I may be permitted, I'd like to throw them up to the group here.

Thanks for all the input :D . Makes the process more fun knowing there are people out there that appeciate this kind of thing 8) .

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Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 6:53 pm
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Well, I'm back -- I couldn't resist digging into this stuff so I grabbed my metric ruler and did a few quick measures.

The neck cavity is 18mm deep -- I wonder if I can roll with this or will the 1mm make a vast difference....? Can a thin shim be placed in here to take up the gap?

The distance from the innermost edge of the neck cavity to the 6-point screw side edge of the trem cavity is 184.5mm. This accounts for the roughly 1/8-inch (2.5mm) gap I estimated in the neck cavity --- This, I think I can readily fix up with a wood shim of some type.

I also wonder if piecing it all together before I perform any finish work would be a good way to validate that the assembly will function properly.....


More later :D

Kozy

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Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 1:40 am
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TO SHIM OR NOT TO SHIM.... that is the question.

The answer is: Probably not. If you really want it done properly, and you want this to be a player (mind you with a 70s gold strat, why are you playing anything else ??) then you're gonna want to do it properly.

Look at Andy, slight router chip, fix it with sawdust and glue.... HELL NO! Route out a cavity to give his axe pinstripes! HELL YES. Now instead of a slight blemish he's got a feature.

I recommend doing the hard yards now (thats my two cents anyway).

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Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 3:46 am
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Impulse7 wrote:
TO SHIM OR NOT TO SHIM.... that is the question.

The answer is: Probably not. If you really want it done properly, and you want this to be a player (mind you with a 70s gold strat, why are you playing anything else ??) then you're gonna want to do it properly.

Look at Andy, slight router chip, fix it with sawdust and glue.... HELL NO! Route out a cavity to give his axe pinstripes! HELL YES. Now instead of a slight blemish he's got a feature.

I recommend doing the hard yards now (thats my two cents anyway).



Gonna be working this out at the dad's home workworking shop -- I reckon he'll encourage me to take the same direction. This fiddle's gonna be the back-up to my gold Strat, which I've been eagar to take back out on gigs...

Oh, and here's a photo of "Goldie" for anybody interested....

[img][img]http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee34/Mercury7Music/goldie.jpg[/img][/img]

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Last edited by kozy814 on Tue Jun 29, 2010 6:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 6:06 am
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Quick question (For Ceri, Andy, Kong...)

What is the typical/correct/normal thickness, at the bolt joint, of the Fender style necks you guys have used on your builds?

Thanks Gents 8)

Kozy, the guitar making newbie bloke :)

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Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 6:39 am
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kozy814 wrote:
Impulse7 wrote:
TO SHIM OR NOT TO SHIM.... that is the question.

The answer is: Probably not. If you really want it done properly, and you want this to be a player (mind you with a 70s gold strat, why are you playing anything else ??) then you're gonna want to do it properly.

Look at Andy, slight router chip, fix it with sawdust and glue.... HELL NO! Route out a cavity to give his axe pinstripes! HELL YES. Now instead of a slight blemish he's got a feature.

I recommend doing the hard yards now (thats my two cents anyway).



Gonna be working this out at the dad's home workworking shop -- I reckon he'll encourage me to take the same direction. This fiddle's gonna be the back-up to my gold Strat, which I've been eagar to take back out on gigs...

Oh, and here's a photo of "Goldie" for anybody interested....

[img][img]http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee34/Mercury7Music/goldie.jpg[/img][/img]


Beautiful guitar... You could alway recreate this tonal monster and keep this one at home safe and sound!

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Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 6:47 am
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DetroitBlues wrote:
kozy814 wrote:

[img][img]http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee34/Mercury7Music/goldie.jpg[/img][/img]


Beautiful guitar... You could alway recreate this tonal monster and keep this one at home safe and sound!


Thanks! I always marvel at just how nice it looks. It's does have some bucklerash on the back -- it's a player. It's the first great guitar I've ever owned. And it's still the best I have. It's been in semi retirement. But it needs some love -- needs to be played. :D

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Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 7:33 am
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kozy814 wrote:
Well, I'm back -- I couldn't resist digging into this stuff so I grabbed my metric ruler and did a few quick measures.

The neck cavity is 18mm deep -- I wonder if I can roll with this or will the 1mm make a vast difference....? Can a thin shim be placed in here to take up the gap?

Actually, far as that goes, though your cavity is too deep it is shallower at the heel (pickup) end of the pocket, so in effect that incline means it is already self-shimmed. You're neck will address the body at a slight angle with the strings hopefully high enough by the time they reach the saddles to counteract the depth of the pocket.

What you have got to do is make sure the floor of that pocket is flat. You spoke of a hump somewhere in it. This has to be addressed. If not with a router then it can be done with a chisel, used with the flat side laid flat on the bottom of the cavity and slid up and down to take out any irregularities (a one inch blade is an ideal size for this job). This will only work if your chisel is seriously sharp! Take a lot of time sharpening the chisel and read up online on how to do that if you are not sure.

Or make friends with your local sushi chef and get him/her to do it. I was originally shown how to sharpen blades by a sushi chef: he uses a knife that he claims cost £15,000 / $22,500 (honestly!) and he says he spends half an hour sharpening it for every half hour of use he gets out of it. Wow.

kozy814 wrote:
The distance from the innermost edge of the neck cavity to the 6-point screw side edge of the trem cavity is 184.5mm. This accounts for the roughly 1/8-inch (2.5mm) gap I estimated in the neck cavity --- This, I think I can readily fix up with a wood shim of some type.

Matter o' fact the manufacturing inaccuracy again works in your favor here. If the gap was too large you would have extra routing to do to bring the trem cavity forward. As it is it just means that with the neck in the right place the bridge screws will be a couple of mil closer to the trem cavity. Probably not a worry in this case.

However:
kozy814 wrote:
I also wonder if piecing it all together before I perform any finish work would be a good way to validate that the assembly will function properly.....


I spent some more time studying your previous posts, and you are headed for a bad mistake if you are not careful. You put the bridge where you thought it ought to go, then dropped the pickguard in place and then positioned the neck from that – and that was how you got a gap between the heel of the neck and the tailward end of the pocket.

This is the wrong order of events.

What you must do is get the neck working right in its pocket FIRST. That means snugly seated right up to the end of the cavity and with any fit issues sorted. Then you drill your bolt holes in the body. Since your neck is already drilled we have to work in the wrong order with that – but don't worry, it is do-able.

Once your neck is bolted into position then you place the bridge in relation to it. I was taking photos last night on my red '57RI to show you how to do that when the time comes. Later...

Only after all of that do you drop the pickguard into position. If it doesn't fit you may have to make small adjustments to it, but that is again perfectly achievable. (For instance, it doesn't look as if the 'guard fits the neck perfectly: we'd want to improve that, especially as it will be covering gaps at the corners of the neck pocket.)

In other words, sort out the neck to body fit FIRST. Then we'll take it from there.

Next:
kozy814 wrote:
Quick question (For Ceri, Andy, Kong...)

What is the typical/correct/normal thickness, at the bolt joint, of the Fender style necks you guys have used on your builds?


:lol: Heehee – well I’m pretty sure I know why you’re asking that. If I’m right then refer to what I said about shimming, above. However, for the record I’ve just been and measured a 2005 American Strat neck and at the 21st fret the depth between the surface of the fingerboard and the back of the heel is 25.95mm / 1.022”.

Just in case it is useful the width of that same neck, treble side to bass again at the 21st fret, is 55.81mm / 2.197”.

Any help?

Don’t want to add more to a long post. But please don’t drill the neck’s bolt holes or the six bridge screw holes without discussing it. There’s right and terribly wrong ways to go about those things…

Cheers - C


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Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 7:43 am
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Hello Kozy!! You definitely have the right man (Ceri) willing and able to help you in correctly putting this body and neck together. Please listen to him and you can't go wrong. I'll be watching and enjoying this build thread. Good luck my friend!! :) :wink:



I'm also watching Andy and Kong's Threads with anticipation!! Can't beat the Fender Forums and it's members!! 8)


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Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 7:48 am
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fhopkins wrote:
Hello Kozy!! You definitely have the right man (Ceri) willing and able to help you in correctly putting this body and neck together. Please listen to him and you can't go wrong.

Gosh, I listen to him and I go wrong all the time! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Kind thanks though. :)

Cheers - C


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