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Post subject: Re: finger independence and anatomy
Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 3:18 am
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Anatomy aside when it comes to fretting you have 4 fingers and a thumb (irrelevant if you use it to mute or play a 5th note).

When playing I find I have a lot of strength in my left ring finger because its where most of my blues bends come from. Supported by my middle finger when required. I also seem to slide a lot with my ring finger. I guess it gets as much use as the index finger.

Tap on's are also a great way to improve pinky power.

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Post subject: Re: finger independence and anatomy
Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 3:28 am
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Ceri wrote:
oneal lane wrote:
I have great independence between 1 and 2, 1 and 3 and 1 and 4,
independence between 2 and 3, 2 and 4 is also great.
independence between 3 and 4 is very poor to nill.

Human anatomy and ability varies from person to person.


Hi oneal: I absolutely get what you are talking about, but it interests me how many people who've posted here have talked about their pinky, rather than the ring finger. That's not right or wrong - but it is different than my experience, at any rate.

Far as I'm concerned this is all about the ring finger. Following on from what Andy is saying about muscle groups, the simple fact is my ring finger has far less independence than any of the others. I had assumed that was the same for everyone - but perhaps not?

Here's a little test. Try resting you palm on a table top and tapping the surface as fast as you can with the first finger. You can probably tap just as fast with the second finger, and possibly with the fourth as well (I can tap as fast with my pinky as the first two). But get to the third/ring finger and not only can you not tap so fast, it is also hard to do so without the fingers beside it moving as well.

Or that's my experience, anyhow.

Cheers - C

PS Congrats on making a thread that's a bit different than the usual round here. :)



These two responses are excellent.
:!:

I did the tap test & here is what I found for me:
Fastest to slowest
1) Index
2) Middle
3) Pinky
4) Ring

On a whim, I tried several combinations of "2 fingers down tap" in which
I would hold 2 fingers down and tap with the other two fingers.
Here are my results (Again, fastest to slowest)

1) Index & Middle
2) Middle & Ring
3) Ring & Pinky
4) Index & Pinky
5) Index & Ring
6) Middle & Pinky

5 & 6 were equally the slowest - Additional concentration was required
so as not to lift off the two other finger.

A third test which could easily been carried out third, is the three fingers down tap in which one finger taps.
(Again, fastest to slowest)

1) Index
2) Middle
3) Pinky
4) Ring

A fourth test which could also have been carried first the one finger down
tap. (this could also be the hardest dexteritywise without other fingers trying get into the act )
(Again, fastest to slowest only this time we noting which finger is held down)

1) Pinky Finger down
2) Index finger down
3) Middle finger down
4) Ring finger down

Adjacent fingers tend to co-motion with each other.

I found that there could be few more variations to add to this but it definitely shows my weak spots. I've never heard of this test before but
it really good. However, what I do on the table and what I can do on the
guitar are worlds apart. I am guessing because I don't naturally tap on tables other than something the pinky, ring, middle, index "tharump" one
will occasionally do when thinking intently.


This test pretty cool. thanks for suggesting it.
:D

Now I need to study my results and compare it with my actual playing ability.
Hey, another cool idea would be to play a riff as fast as you can and count the notes in a given space of time (I could record this with my computer and go back and count and see how many notes I can play and note the finger fret positions. (this test may be refined with a better technique)

Whatever the case may be, my pinky is still the weakest and clumsiest.
My name isn't Malmsteen. Sorry to those who may have thought otherwise. :lol:


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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 7:43 am
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Its early, and I just arrived at the old saltmine, I have lots to do so this will be quick. Thanks all for the great posts! Great insight and information. I will have to take some time to digest it all, but in a quick reading some of you nailed it for me.

Looks like a fairly common trait for humans.

I will be back later.

Thanks again!

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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 7:51 am
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That's a neat test! I found that I can tap faster and with a more consistent tempo with my right hand ring finger than my left, even though my left ring finger gets the workout when I play and my right ring finger is just tucked into my palm.

I am right hand dominant though so the right is more capable of/familiar with fine control with most other tasks besides guitar playing. Which leads to the thought that a right hand dominance would translate into a tendency to play left handed and vice versa.

Another thing that limits my pinky reach is my bad habit of wrapping my thumb over the top of the neck in a death grip.

n.


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Post subject: Re: finger independence and anatomy
Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:59 am
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oneal lane wrote:
I have a problem with my little finger (4) and lack of independence between it and my ring finger (3), that is on my left hand - my fretting hand.

I have great independence between 1 and 2, 1 and 3 and 1 and 4,
independence between 2 and 3, 2 and 4 is also great.
independence between 3 and 4 is very poor to nill.

Human anatomy and ability varies from person to person. I was wondering what the predominant ability was amoungst the stratophiles here.


I am naturally right handed and if I had to do it all over again I would play right hand fretting. My independence is better on my right hand in all respects


I am naturally left-handed (but I play normally, that is, right-handed), so that is my more dextrous hand anyway, but I have the same problem. I asked my classical guitar teacher about it, and there is actually a medical explanation. Wiggle your fingers, you will see the tendons moving. Now do each finger one at a time. Your index, middle, and ring fingers each have their own, right? But what about the pinkie? It doesn't have its own tendon, it's connected to the ring finger's one. This is why the pinkie and ring finger move together!

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Last edited by stratmuchacho on Sat Jun 19, 2010 4:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: finger independence and anatomy
Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 5:50 pm
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oneal lane wrote:
...

I am naturally right handed and if I had to do it all over again I would play right hand fretting. My independence is better on my right hand in all respects


I actually considered that at one point, for that very reason.


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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 6:23 pm
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Like everyone else, as a relatively new player I struggle with the dexterity and coordination of the last 2 digits. I'm left handed and play that way...right hand on the fret board. Part of my problem, I think, is that I'm over 50 and my fingers have spent a lifetime working together and now I'm asking them to work independantly. It's anarchy.

I have a separate issue, that being when my fingers bend, the tip of my pinkie points towards the ring finger. Not good for trying to reach that next fret! I took a block of wood, drilled some holes in it and use that when I'm watching television to try and stretch out all my fingers and hopefully point that one sucker the other way. Anyone else notice that about their pinkie or am I just a freak of nature?

Anyway, lots of good advice on this topic to be had here....appreciate the help.

Brian


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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 10:36 pm
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My little finger is basically useless most of the time, so it stays tucked away. But when the time comes for a lick when I really need it I tend to struggle. I never really had the patience to do drills that hurt and didn't really make any difference except sore fingers. But after reading through this thread I think I'm going to try some of the things suggested and focus more on using my little finger.

And just a note here, I find it easier to play with my little finger with my hand positioned in a classical style than Hendrix style with my thumb over the board. The thumb position is more comfortable to me overall, but the thumb basically replaces my little finger. I haven't found a comfortable way of doing both.

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Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 12:59 am
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The tendon of the ring finger runs underneath those of the index and middle fingers, and is partially linked to the tendon of the little finger. There isn't room for much independent movement before the little finger wants to come along for the ride. The "desk test" mentioned before here illustrates it best — typically the ring finger can be lifted half as far as the others if you go through them one by one while all other fingers are flat on the table.

Regulars here are going to be doing this :roll: , but flamenco players (when is he going to shut up about flamenco?!) make a virtue out of the ring finger's relative weakness by using it in tandem with the little finger for right-hand rhythms. Say it was a sixteenth-note strumming pattern you had to play: starting with thumb resting on sixth string and fingers curled into the palm, the "1-" would be played by flinging the ring and little fingers outward forcefully (they have quite a lot of leverage when used together intentionally); the "-e-" would be the middle finger moving downward; the "-and-" would be the index finger and the "-a" would be all fingers returning to their curled position.

Back in the world of electric guitar, I quite like to use the ring finger for little slurs and trills when my other fingers are occupied. As it can't move far on its own, I don't fall so easily into my usual habit of having my fingers waving around all over the place while I make a vinegar face when I really, really need them to be somewhere else very quickly! :)


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Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 1:01 am
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Man, that spider excercise is a killer....I don't need a metronome to time myself, I need a calendar.


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Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 4:55 am
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old lefty wrote:
Like everyone else, as a relatively new player I struggle with the dexterity and coordination of the last 2 digits. I'm left handed and play that way...right hand on the fret board. Part of my problem, I think, is that I'm over 50 and my fingers have spent a lifetime working together and now I'm asking them to work independantly. It's anarchy.

I have a separate issue, that being when my fingers bend, the tip of my pinkie points towards the ring finger. Not good for trying to reach that next fret! I took a block of wood, drilled some holes in it and use that when I'm watching television to try and stretch out all my fingers and hopefully point that one sucker the other way. Anyone else notice that about their pinkie or am I just a freak of nature?

Anyway, lots of good advice on this topic to be had here....appreciate the help.

Brian


Specifically,
Quote:
I'm over 50 and my fingers have spent a lifetime working together and now I'm asking them to work independantly. It's anarchy.



Well, Brian, we could always chop those anarchists off the hand and set them up on the fretboard and watch 'em dance.
You go first and tell us how it works out. :wink:


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Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 5:24 am
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mondo500 wrote:
...(when is he going to shut up about flamenco?!)...

Very seriously: please don't! It is something most of us know damn all about, and the stuff you tell us adds such an interesting extra dimension to this place.

Carry on! 8)

And to old lefty/Brian: comfort yourself with the thought that Gary Moore does an awful lot of his playing with just his first two fingers of his fretting hand, and almost never uses his pinky. Frankly, that's pretty lousy technique - and yet most of us would be delighted to be able to play half as well has him! (Oh and also, like many of us, he's a left-handed guy playing right-handed...)

Ultimately, the music that comes out the far end is all that counts.

So you carry on, too! 8)

Cheers - C


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Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 7:30 am
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Thanks for the encouragement. Sounds like there's quite a few lefties here that play righty. That must mean there's very few playing left handed. Maybe we could form a support group to discuss a lack of model and color choices in our strats! :roll:

Brian


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Post subject: Re: finger independence and anatomy
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 9:20 am
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It all comes down to practice. You have to train your brain to send those impulses to muscles that rarely have to work independently (unless you're a guitarist). Practicing scales and scalar runs will help to build muscle control and develop your brain's "instinctive" ability to use those muscles and that's what builds speed and dexterity.


oneal lane wrote:
I have a problem with my little finger (4) and lack of independence between it and my ring finger (3), that is on my left hand - my fretting hand.

I have great independence between 1 and 2, 1 and 3 and 1 and 4,
independence between 2 and 3, 2 and 4 is also great.
independence between 3 and 4 is very poor to nill.

Human anatomy and ability varies from person to person. I was wondering what the predominant ability was amoungst the stratophiles here.


I am naturally right handed and if I had to do it all over again I would play right hand fretting. My independence is better on my right hand in all respects

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Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 10:01 am
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old lefty wrote:
Man, that spider excercise is a killer....I don't need a metronome to time myself, I need a calendar.

Ain't it, though? The first time I did I was shocked to learn that I couldn't move my ring finger from the sixth string to the fifth--unless I closed my eyes! :shock:

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