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Post subject: Taboo Build
Posted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 1:58 pm
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Hey gang,

I posted a while back ago about a restoration project, it's kinda taboo for us strataholics but I figure another build thread couldin't hurt.

So here's the lowdown, 70s Lawsuit Ibanez SG...YES!

I've stripped the body, and am currently finishing prep work for finishing. There is also a neck thats being restored, frets removed, nut removed, etc...but thats a story for another day.

So here is the piece I'm working with
Image

Looks good right? Might have to clean up the cavity still. But I dig the grain.
Image


And theres a whole lot of holes drilled into it, I'm still trying to figure out what will be filled according to the bridge I go with. Maestro most likely.

Image



My question for you is "grain filler" is kind of confusing me
Image

If I use a "light" colour of grain filler on this wood, will it make the grain come out more ?? I'm planning to put a semi-transparent orange/burst colour as a finish. And would like shimmering light highlights in the grain, not dark highlights.

https://www.woodessence.com/ColorFX-Dye ... s-P46.aspx
Orange mixed with Burnt Sienna.

Image

Also what kind of steps do I need to do BEFORE STAINING?

Cheers,
Jack


Oh yes....we drink what we can in Canada.
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Posted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 2:10 pm
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Great project, I'll keep an eye on it. :)
Claude. 8)


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Posted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 3:20 pm
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Cool project, those lawsuit guitars are supposed to be really good, better than the Gibsons of the time. I saw a Rocket Roll Flying V in a local shop about 10-12 years ago on consignment for 400 bucks, a real Closet Classic, but I was flat BROKE, if I knew anything about those guitars at the time I would have taken up my friends offer to buy it for me, now I see them go for $800-$1000 on eBay. Anyway, when I saw you mentioned how you wanted the grain to pop out I wondered how it would look with silver rubbed into the grain :shock: but who knows how much that would cost ya :roll:

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Posted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 5:55 pm
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How many of those holes are for the pickguard(s)?

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Posted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 9:05 pm
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I have a lawsuit era Ventura SG that was my first electric guitar. I have been thinking of making it a project, but its so beautifully worn, I would hate to strip it.


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Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:15 am
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@ Orville - there are 8 holes for the Pickguard, anything past the bridge peg slots is a hole from mounting the knockoff bigsby that came with the guitar

Image
this gives you a good idea as to what it looked like before the strip down.

I have applied wood filler to most of the dents, and will be sanding it all down to re-applying tonight.


Does anyone have experience with the Maestro bridge systems ? I hear you need a roller bridge for that kind of tail piece. I've looked around at other forums..but none of them ever provide the kind of depth and insight that this gentlemens club can. All they say is that the cool factor is much higher on the maestro and that its more sensitive then a bigsby.

I happen to agree about the aesthetics, but this thing is gonna be built to rock so if a bigsby is "best" so be it.

Cheers,
Jack


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Post subject: Re: Taboo Build
Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:16 am
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JackSteel wrote:
My question for you is "grain filler" is kind of confusing me... If I use a "light" colour of grain filler on this wood, will it make the grain come out more ?? I'm planning to put a semi-transparent orange/burst colour as a finish. And would like shimmering light highlights in the grain, not dark highlights... Also what kind of steps do I need to do BEFORE STAINING?

Hi Jack: I suspect it is not what you want to hear, but in this case I so strongly recommend you spend a few dollars on Guitar Finishing Step-By-Step, by Dan and Don:

http://www.amazon.com/Guitar-Finishing- ... 593&sr=8-1

In the recipes section alone they have 22 pages on Gibson finishes, including four pages and several completely different procedures for SGs. In addition to everything else they have to say throughout the book about prepping, grain filling, staining - etc etc.

Different types of grain filler? Coloring grain filler with pigments? Using stain or not for SG finishes? Building the color with toner in the lacquer?

There's just far too much to cover in posts on a Forum, if you want to have any sort of understanding of what you are doing.

...But do feel free to ask specific questions anyhow, if we can help! :D

Good luck - C


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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:17 pm
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that book is certainly somethign to consider down the line, next build perhaps? (Jazzmaster :lol: ) But for now I think I'm just gonna go with the specific questions.

Do you generally drill holes before or after finishing??

I'm just about done filling the holes and ready to start getting my sample staining done to work out the colour I want. This body appears to be mohogany...(correct me if I'm wrong)? So what would be a good wood to simulate the stain on?

Cheers,
Jack


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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:33 pm
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Mixing Canadian Club with Diet root beer?

EEEEWWWWW!!!


But I digress.
If I can made a suggestion to you here, the edges as the guitar is veneered you should consider either black edge or a dark orange just enough to solidly cover the veneer lines.


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Post subject:
Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:38 pm
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JackSteel wrote:
that book is certainly somethign to consider down the line, next build perhaps? (Jazzmaster :lol: ) But for now I think I'm just gonna go with the specific questions.

Do you generally drill holes before or after finishing??

I'm just about done filling the holes and ready to start getting my sample staining done to work out the colour I want. This body appears to be mohogany...(correct me if I'm wrong)? So what would be a good wood to simulate the stain on?

OK. Well far as the holes are concerned, though I've seen photos of them in the Fender factory drilling small holes for pickguard screws and such after finishing, in general I'd recommend drilling 'em before. Then use a countersink to just soften the edge a little so the lacquer doesn't come to a hard, brittle corner in that spot and put match sticks into the holes while spraying to keep the finish out of there. All of that will help prevent the screws cracking the lacquer as they go in.

For larger holes for pots and such you most definitely want to drill first and likewise do the countersink thing. And remember that lacquer takes up an appreciable amount of space so drill the holes comfortably too big as they will shrink by a good ten or twenty thou once the lacquer is in there.

What's worrying me about the idea of using stain for your color is this photo:

Image

What I'm seeing there is that the body is made subsantially from timber with grain running in the same direction as the guitar strings. However, it seems to be capped with another thinner piece with the grain running at right angles across the body - which is a very odd thing to do. That in turn appears to be topped with a veneer with the grain running the conventional way.

When you apply stain, whether rubbing it in or spraying it, it habitually sinks into the end grain much more than the rest, which can make it darker around the horns and tail of most guitars. One, but not the only, reason the likes of Fender cover their sunburst edges with black - to hide that sort of thing.

On this particular body you have a very odd arrangement of end grain with those different layers running in different directions. I think that is going to give you a most undesirable series of stripes round the edge, brought out in an unfortunate way by the stain.

Much better would be to do your grain filling with a walnut tone filler (never confuse grain filler with wood filler [putty], you know that, don't you?). After that seal the wood with a couple of coats of vinyl sealer (available in an aerosol, if you are having trouble finding it). Then get the color by tinting the lacquer rather than staining. I notice the particular stain you have says on the label that it can also be used as a colorant for lacquer: that's the route I'd go.

Then you can spray as many layers of color as you like round the edges to get it nice and dark and cover up that strange sandwich effect on the timber.

Is that idea working for you...?

Cheers - C

PS My ambition is to drink Canada Dry. One day... :wink:


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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:19 pm
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Jeffytune wrote:
Mixing Canadian Club with Diet root beer?

EEEEWWWWW!!!


But I digress.
If I can made a suggestion to you here, the edges as the guitar is veneered you should consider either black edge or a dark orange just enough to solidly cover the veneer lines.


My thought exactly! Tried it with Dr Pepper once when had nothing else. Was pretty bad but Root Beer seems like it would be worse!

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Post subject:
Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 7:10 pm
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Awesome advice Ceri, I'm gonna hold off on the stain for now and consider the tinted lacquer option. Problem is getting Nitro in Canada...any suggestion for an alternative that will wear like nitro?

This is what the stain did look like when I tested it..just for shits. Needs a few more coats before its the colour I want.
Image

While I wait for the bridge/tailpiece (maestro) I just ordered, I'll take a stab at getting some prep work for the nut shelf done. Heres a shot of the mess.
Image

Apart from sanding is there anything specific that needs to be done before I insert the graphite nut?


Oh and what to do about this pretty serious fretboard damage?
Image

Image


Thanks for the help,
Hope to keep it moving for you all!


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Post subject:
Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 6:46 am
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So I guess threads get burried pretty easily around here...you'll have to excuse me for the slow updates...work, life, girls. :roll:

So I've mauled over the tinted lacquer approach that Ceri presented and I'm gonna go with that over directly applying the stain. I also managed to locate some nitro lacquer in the Ottawa region, no easy feat.

My specific question regarding this process is what the "difference" is between filling the grain and spraying... or not filling the pores and spraying multiple thin coats to get a flat surface? I hear nitro melts away at each previous coat to smooth itself out.

Also I'll update the thread with some pics of the progress on the neck. I've got all the frets back into their seats and am looking at some tools to finish the job.

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Fretting_su ... _File.html

Does anyone use this tool ? It seems like it would be pretty versatile.

Thanks,
Jack


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Post subject:
Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 2:46 pm
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JackSteel wrote:
Also I'll update the thread with some pics of the progress on the neck. I've got all the frets back into their seats and am looking at some tools to finish the job. Does anyone use this tool ? It seems like it would be pretty versatile.


That tool is fine. You can also use a flat file to crown you just need to learn the technique in rolling off the edges.
It also helps if you use a flat file that has safe edges on the tool so you don't damage the fretboard.

So you didn't use new frets?
Did you repair the damaged fret slots (rosewood dust and super glue)?

Have you done a fret job before as crowning is about the last step.

I recommend watching Dan Erlewine's fretting series
http://www.stewmac.com/shopby/product/5611


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Post subject:
Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 10:05 pm
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Rye and rootbeer.
That is damned peculiar.
And diet to boot.
I'm not surprised to see someone say "ewww!"

Just when you think you've seen everything ....

I think a Tele neck would go quite nicely with that SG style body.

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