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Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 7:01 am
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Wouldn't you be better off to simply raise the floor of the neck pocket and the bridge?

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Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 8:46 am
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Well Ceri, I think your plan is totally bonkers, which can only mean one thing: Let's get cracking! 8)

I did send Ceri that email, and unintentionally evoked the reaction I secretly desired: Set a master to a task! I have my ears pricked, I can tell you! :D

So, Ceri. Pickups.
Basically I think from a traditional magnetic point of view there are four nice choices so far.
Singlecoil
P90
Humbucker
Lipstick.

This last one seems strangely ignored by many people, I think it's a design worth building on, especially in this case. Just yesterday I saw a band performing and one guitarist was seriously working his Danelectro, and I liked what I heard! Might have been the Fender amp, though... :lol:

Anyway, I found a small sketch online:

Image

So basically it's a pretty flat piece of magnet with some coils around it. And I think it's visually appealing.
My suggestion is: Let's consider the values of this system and expand it. Make two very flat and thin lipsticks next to each other, thus maybe even achieving a humbucking effect. If setup correctly that could be the way to go.
I mean they don't even have to look like lipstics, you could fit them into some custom designed container of some sort. But the idea could work.

If you really wanna go flat there's also hex pickups, but I don't know squat about those. Ah, reading ahead.

For those interested in progressive design here's another one I stumbled across. Gus guitars. Brain fodder, Ceri!
Image

So far for now. Image

-Nutter


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Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:02 am
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Go for a neodynium design. Much more powerfull magnets should occupy less space. You'll likely need more winds to balance that. Resulting I suppose in a wider but flatter pickup. Width isn't a problem to a sliding pickup is it? It's not like you'll need other pickups on the thing.

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Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:34 am
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Well, it just so happens I've been doing a little research into the possibilities of manufacturing a set of Big Hairy Custom Wound Pickups using an old sowing machine.

For a Ceri Master Flat wound pickup I'm in with Nick. Whether or not you'd need to use some thing as strong as Neodymium I don't know but for the following it might not be a bad idea.

To make one that's only 4-5mm thick would be an interesting challenge. The most economical way I can think of would be to use a thin ceramic blade magnet placed vertically between whatever material you want to use for the housing. The Housing which is usually made of some kind of thin fibre board is going to be at least 1.5mm thick top and bottom which only leaves 1.5 – 2mm for about 8000 winds. Maybe with the thinner wire you wouldn't need as many winds to achieve a P-90 type DC resistance. Maybe 46 AWG that's about 0.039mm in diameter.

Of course the designing a pups is relatively easy compared to sourcing materials that wouldn't normally be found in a standard pickup.

We're going to be vamping for quite a while yet folks but I like where this thread is going! :wink:

This is fuelling my already savage G.B.H. :D

Andy

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Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:56 am
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Guys, thanks so much for running with this ball! :D

Please assume for a moment that you are dealing with an electronics dunce here - because you are! Two questions:

1. Does a stronger magnet in the same number of winds give a higher output than a weaker magnet? I'm pondering what Nick said about a stronger magnet needing more winds of wire.

2. Does thicker wire give more or less output with a given number of winds?

Obviously, I'm wondering about bulk-to-output ratios. How can we keep the overall size down if we have to make these pickups shallower but wider?

Also:
Mr Nutter wrote:
I mean they don't even have to look like lipstics, you could fit them into some custom designed container of some sort.

It's like you're reading my mind! Custom designed - and perhaps quite cool - housings are exactly where I'm going here. Oddly, for me that's the easy bit.

Gotta work out how big the innards are that need containing first though. Carry on, you of great thoughts... 8)

Cheers - C


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Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 10:14 am
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Ceri wrote:
2. Does thicker wire give more or less output with a given number of winds?

I'm not entirely sure why but from what I've read a pickup wound with thinner gauge wire with the same number of winds as a pup with thicker wire will have a larger DC resistance. Though this doesn't always equate to the output of the pickup but probably more to the clarity of the final sound produced.

My Brother in-law is a Physics Teacher. I'll have to pick his brains on this when I see him next.

Head recking stuff!

Andy

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Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 10:30 am
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Don't know diddily about pickups to be honest, but looking at Nutters drawing could for instance the magnet be split in two and have the windings done in a figure 8 style around both magnets, same magnet area covered with same amount of windings only flatter


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Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 10:36 am
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Ah, Ceri, great minds think alike, eh? but certainly this is a joint effort of many great minds! Cool! 8)

Copied from this site:
Strong vs. weak magnet:
Atlantic Quality Design wrote:
There are some trade offs involved in pickup design. First, a stronger magnet means that fewer turns of wire are needed for a certain audio output. That means that the pickup can be smaller. If the pickup is made in some standard size, a stronger magnet produces more audio output.

Also, stronger magnets are not the cure-all for electric guitar. Since the guitar strings are ferromagnetic and are attracted to the magnets, the pickups affect the vibrations of the strings, which is bad since the pickups are only there to sense the vibrations, not change them.
Meaning: Wolfnotes! (utters the Nutter)
It might seem smart to choose the strongest magnet, neodymium boron iron, and make a pickup so hot that you could plug a 100 watt light bulb into your Les Paul. But that magnet will either affect the strings adversely, or you'd have to make it so small that its magnetic field would be too concentrated. Weaker magnets necessarily must be larger in diameter to be usable, and they produce a broader field that is tolerant of the strings' movement while being plucked and bent.


Also as Andy rightfully says, thinner gauge is better for a more sensitive PU.

From this site:
Guitar-repairs.co.uk wrote:
A pickup will have an inductance, measured in Henries - this figure can be anything from 1 Henry for a low output single coil pickup up to around 9 Henries for high output humbuckers. This inductance depends on the number of turns of copper wire and also on the physical shape of the coils.

Similarly every pickup coil has a characteristic DC resistance, measured in Ohms - this depends on the number of turns and the diameter of the copper wire used. Typical values can range from about 1k (1000 ohms) up to about 15k (15000 ohms).

Pickups also exhibit a "distributed" capacitance which is effectively in parallel with the inductance of the coil - this is caused by the addition of the very small capacitance between each turn on the coil.

Looking at the combination of these factors, one can consider a pickup to be an electrical circuit comprising an inductor and a capacitor connected in parallel, with a resistor in series - this is effectively a tuned circuit with a well defined resonant frequency, determined by the inductance and capacitance and a damping factor, determined by the DC resistance.
Image

In practice the range of values found in typical guitar pickups result in a fairly smooth resonant peak in the upper midrange, values can be anything from one or two kHz (kilohertz) for high output humbuckers up to around 8 kHz for "vintage" single coils. It is this resonant peak which gives each pickup its own individual character.


So, let's discuss this! :D

Cheerful regards,

-Nutter

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Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 10:36 am
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ripitup555 wrote:
Don't know diddily about pickups to be honest, but looking at Nutters drawing could for instance the magnet be split in two and have the windings done in a figure 8 style around both magnets, same magnet area covered with same amount of windings only flatter

Thats what i thought.... untill you try to build a winder that can wind a figure 8!

:D

Andy

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Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:09 pm
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Ceri wrote:
Where we need to start is a new design of single coil pickup that is wide but very shallow indeed, so's it can fit comfortably between the strings and the face of a non-routed guitar body ... Am I barking mad to even be thinking of this stuff?


Yes, I believe you to be barking mad.

I don't think there's a lot of published theory out there ... so your attempts are likely to be Trial and Error.

I've rewound an old pickup (using the technique found at Stew-Mac). But I had the flatware and the magnets, so I just wound enough wire on it to get to the typical '70s Strat pickup stats (5.7K DCR and 2.2H inductance).

I believe that the magnets are the big uncontrollable factor in all of this -- for the typical layman, at least. We don't have "chargers" or magnetometers (to measure their strength). Stew-Mac sells Fender-type pole pieces (uncharged) and shows how to charge them (using a couple of more powerful magnets).

What about having the moveable pickup be underneath the pickguard (sort of like the stealth-Tele/Esquire trick)? You'd just need to cut two channels in the guard in which the mounting screws would slide.

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Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 2:15 pm
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The_Nutter wrote:
So, let's discuss this! :D

I agree with Orvilleowner.

What I've found out so far regarding possibly building my own pups is that It really all comes down to getting some magnets and some wire and building one! Its all about trial and error for a home builder.

I intend to keep an eye out for a set of cheap pups with alnico magnets, take one apart, then re-wind it and it together again to compare. By doing this a few times I hope to pick out the key variables that change a pups tone.

I'm also on the look out for some magnets (not necessarily made for pickups) that are easy to get hold of and see what can be made from them. Again trial and error.

Of course I need to make a pickup winder....

Andybighair wrote:
ripitup555 wrote:
Don't know diddily about pickups to be honest, but looking at Nutters drawing could for instance the magnet be split in two and have the windings done in a figure 8 style around both magnets, same magnet area covered with same amount of windings only flatter

That's what I thought.... until you try to build a winder that can wind a figure 8!

I decided to give Rips Figure 8 wind another go.... Mrs Bighair is not impressed with the modifications made to her mains powered whisk.

Sowing machine it is then. :D

Andy

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Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 4:03 pm
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The_Nutter wrote:
Atlantic Quality Design wrote:
There are some trade offs involved in pickup design. Etc...

Ah: so that's what they mean by "purple prose". Might as well be kaleidosope color - my brain's hurting already!

orvilleowner wrote:
I don't think there's a lot of published theory out there ... so your attempts are likely to be Trial and Error.

Trial and error we can manage. Theory: not so good...

orvilleowner wrote:
I've rewound an old pickup (using the technique found at Stew-Mac).

I remember. You used the electric drill method, I believe? And so, not being able to count the winds, you simply went on till the meter showed the resistance you were chasing - is that right? That's the trial aspect of trial and error. Excellent!

Andybighair wrote:
Of course I need to make a pickup winder...

Actually I think that's the easiest bit. In addition to Orville's Black & Decker method I know of a few other ways to go about it, all of which I can fabricate. That's my chain maille making experience coming in handy... [Oops - did I just say that out loud? I am not a re-enactor, ladies and gentlemen...] Or anyway until we have a hit on our hands and can be bothered to go out and buy a Schatten coil winding machine, that is. Not so expensive, either. (Google for details.)

So anyway. It seems you boys can take care of designing the innards, right? Leaving me free to start at the end and think about the casing for this thing. After all, who cares what it sounds like? The looks are what counts... :lol:

My wife's nice young colleague just gave me a little leather bound Piccadilly notebook and the very first thing I've drawn in it is an initial draft pickup casing design (not what she had in mind, I suspect):

Image

Image

No exposed poles, like a Sensor, and a kinda low, curvy, lozenge type shape with tags for the screws part of the same organic shape. They'll be visible on the front of the guitar, remember. Needs to look nice - the iPod of pickups. The tags can be re-enforced with a little Kevlar for strength if necessary.

We'll cast this in polyester resin or perhaps polyurethane resin if that seems more finger-friendly. We can color that any way we like: white or black or ivory like Sensors, or use that very fine metallic powder Twelvebar used for his Candy Apple finish to give us some tasty silver, gold or copper options. For that matter we could also do an iron "gel coat" which we could then tarnish and rust for the ultimate relic look. Or we could just cast the resin transparent for a view of the innards. Or trans-red or blue or... You get the idea. Remember my fingerboard dot markers...?

What I'm thinking: instead of wax potting the coils we'd wind them and then simply cast the casing around them, so's we end up with a sort of solid state object with just a couple of wire terminals sticking out the bottom (or one end or where we wish). All of this casting business: this stuff is right up my street. No probs.

With two of these with the appropriate direction windings and polarity mounted moveably on the front of the guitar you could have them spaced wide for Tele type sounds and options - or quickly just shove one up against the other for a Dually-look instant humbucker.

Or is my imagination running away with me?

Whatchathink?

Cheers - C


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Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 5:02 pm
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Sounds not so nutty after all, when Mr C. puts it down on paper, eh, folks? 8)

Sorry for the awkward colour, guys, I guess the mushrooms on that pizza weren't champignons. Weird. Won't happen again.

Casting the PUps will be really cool, Ceri Jobs. I like your style! Will I be allowed to carve one in wood (outside) and you cast the innards? I so like the look of wood... :D

A highly skilled sketchmaster wrote:
Image


that looks sweet. So you are planning to have two rails on the outside?
How much space do we have? would outward mounting be necessary to save hight? Or would this work, to fit in with Ceri's desire for clean appearance? (Though I must say I quite like the original "ears" on either side - looks great!)

Image

This way there would be no extra mounting stuff either side of the strings. Just a thought.

Other matter: How do we plan to get current to- and from the PUs? Will there be leads? Or will there be a rail system which simultaneously transports current and pick-up?

Pondering deeply:

-Nutter

PS: I dig copyright law(s)!


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Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 5:23 am
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The_Nutter wrote:
Or would this work, to fit in with Ceri's desire for clean appearance? (Though I must say I quite like the original "ears" on either side - looks great!)

So maybe the ears are a bit too fussy - too baroque? Well, let's try losing 'em:

Image

We could go for straight ends or curved. Maybe the latter looks a bit too much like the ordinary single coil shape. But on the other hand maybe the straight ended one looks a bit too much like an iPhone. I know someone who teaches at a school of architecture and says that as soon as the iPhone came along suddenly all her students' building designs started looking like that object. We don't want to be too referential...

More thought on that.

The_Nutter wrote:
How much space do we have? would outward mounting be necessary to save height?

Even with a lipstick based design people would still want to vary the height between treble and bass, do you think? So then we'd still need adjustment screws at either end with the rubber grommets beneath - or is there another way?

The_Nutter wrote:
So you are planning to have two rails on the outside? How do we plan to get current to- and from the PUs? Will there be leads? Or will there be a rail system which simultaneously transports current and pick-up?

Yes, I've been wondering about that. The current could be delivered through the adjustment screws to the mounting rails - but of course that would mean if you had two pickups they would always be on and always connected in parallel. Would that matter?

Here is a first draft for a mounting system. We definitely can improve on this:

Image

Far as construction is concerned, here's where I'm up to so far. We're thinking of a bar magnet at the moment, yes? So then we need flatwork at either end to turn it into a bobbin to hold the coils in place. Like Andy says, that is usually a thick-ish fibre material - but it doesn't have to be. No reason why we can't use wafer thin slivers of Kevlar or carbon fibre stiffened with resin. That is easier even than it sounds. So then the thing fits together like this (seen upside down):

Image

We create the outside of the casing as a "gel coat" inside our mould of the color we wish. (For anyone as knows, this is the same principle as making a surfboard - in miniature.) We then drop in the magnet bobbin with the coils wound around, as seen. Finally we simply pour in resin to fill up the space and turn the whole thing into a solid, user-non-repairable unit.

I haven't worked out where eyelets or hookup contacts go yet. Of course, that's all much easier if the pickups aren't going to slide, but...

That's where I'm up to so far.

The_Nutter wrote:
PS: I dig copyright law(s)!

Ha - I edited that out a moment after putting up the post, but not before you saw it, it seems! :lol:

Cheers - C


Last edited by Ceri on Sun Oct 31, 2010 5:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 5:25 am
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Could you explain the "casting" method Ceri?
I'm thinking you "dip" the windings in a liquid metal and let it sit.
(I'm thinking like dipping chocolates...it's Halloween here so ...) Obviously, that can't be how it's done!

Nice sketching by the way!
-T

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