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Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 5:43 am
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I thought it was a conspiracy to sell more compressors... :lol: :twisted:

The radius does make a difference. It got me to thinking how Fender dealt with the issue on the new compound radius on the Deluxe...I finally found a decent picture on the Wildwood website. The stagger is there but much more subtle...

http://www.wildwoodguitars.com/electric ... 338716.php


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Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 5:45 am
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umpdv5000 wrote:
I thought that may provoke a response like that. I do concede that the vintage pickups may have a lower output, which will of course affect the end tone. Now this having been clarified and the fact that you say it is the price you pay for the vintage sound, do you think that a further modification by Fender could put things into a more agreeable context. ie: Suppose Fender were to build a pickup using the same metal content for the magnets and the same amount of windings around them as the Vintage design, but made them without the stagger. Do you think that this would still give you that Vintage sound that you are used to with an improvement of string balance, or do you think that the missing staggered poles would detract from the sound?

Hi Martin: in short, yes, I agree.

And to be fair, there are pickups that offer pretty much vintage spec but with a stagger configured for an unwound G string.

Further, most aftermarket pickup manufacturers either offer such pickups or will make them to order, often at no extra cost. You can ask for vintage spec pickups but with a modern stagger, or no stagger at all - or whatever you can dream up. Maybe makes their lives a tiny bit more interesting, too! :D

Cheers - C


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Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 8:47 am
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One thing to highlight in this discussion is that this isn’t an either flat or staggered choice. To me, flat is just as bad as a vintage stagger because both E strings are going to be effectively closer to the pickup because of the neck radius and your wound strings are going to have a lower output. The best choice IMHO is a modern stagger that takes the unwound G string into account.

Not to take things too off topic, but the extra odd thing is that fender sets up most of its strats with the treble side closer which would suggest that the poles are not set optimally and they have to compensate.


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Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 9:57 am
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I too set up Strat pickups closer to the unwound E String and a little lower on the Bass E String. One reason being biasing, as the unwound E String being thinner gives off a weaker impulse and the other reason is that I tend to set pickups as close to a string as I am able before the pull of the magnet starts oscillating the string and affects the tuning. This puts a limit on the distance of the magnet from the string which tends to be greater on the bass side.

I have a guitar with a set of the old original John Birch Strat Pickups on, which you can bias manually by pressing the magnets in or out to suit. I biased them to suit the strings on the guitar by putting the 1st & 4th magnet highest, 2nd & 5th slightly lower and 3rd & 6th lowest. Works well on this one.

I notice that there are a number of quotes about the modern Staggering position of the magnet poles. How are these staggered? Are they like those on the Mexican Strats ie: rising and falling with the camber of the board?

Martin.


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Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 10:54 am
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umpdv5000 wrote:
I notice that there are a number of quotes about the modern Staggering position of the magnet poles. How are these staggered?


Easier to show than to tell. Here's some of mine, on a 2005 US Strat. Note, a lower G pole, though not as low as the B and top e. Nuttin' to do with the fingerboard radius:

Image

Cheers - C


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Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 11:03 am
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I have to say that configuration looks a lot more useful than the vintage style. I am sure that I will eventually come across a set of those installed on a Strat and when I do I will be sure to check them out. Thanks for the picture Ceri.

Martin.


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Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 3:22 pm
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This is an interesting topic.

Another thing I notice on the Kinman Blues pickups in my Deluxe Strat compared to the Texas Specials in my other Strats, is that the pole pieces are also spaced on the Kinman pickups so that they line up centrally focused on each string.

This varies according to the position of each pickup. For instance, if I take the outside to outside edge measurement of the two E string pole-pieces on the neck and middle pickups, there is a 3mm difference, and the covers aren't interchangeable.

Not sure if it make a hoot of difference but it does show nice attention to detail on Kinman's part.


Cheers,

Snowy


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Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 5:35 pm
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Ceri wrote:
Nuttin' to do with the fingerboard radius:
Cheers - C


Ah mate it is, of course it is. Reason being that your string height to some degree follow the radius. If you had a flat fingerboard, and I mean perfectly flat. Then flat polepieces would perform better, wouldnt they? You'd get the right mix of tension vs size vs content?

Your all forgetting those that like a high D&G. :lol: You could fire arrows off mine.

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Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 6:56 pm
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Isn't it to do with the action of the magnet on the string, as well as the fingerboard radius? The wound strings have a different mass, and interact with the poles differently, they don't generate as much signal as the unwound strings. Not a very scientific expln... hmmm.

My first strat was a '95 US standard, with flat pole pieces, and it never quite sounded 'straty' enough for me somehow, couldn't ever put my finger on just what it was though. That one got stolen and with the insurance bucks I bought a 2001 US standard, with the modern stagger - and then I had the sound I was looking for. I figure Fender got it right with the modern stagger, a simple return to Leo's original but adjusted for modern players with non-wound Gs. They're balanced and my strat sounds like a strat to my ears!

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Posted: Sat May 15, 2010 1:10 am
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I have been having a Straty moment over the last few days, that is to say that I have been wiggling around with mine just because I wanted to. When I do have my moments were I wiggle about with a guitar, I find myself constantly listening and looking at its settings to see if its at optimum performance. It was only a few weeks since I set this guitar up after I had re-fretted it and I thought to myself, "I wonder if I can get the action a bit lower?" Which is a bit daft really, because now I am questioning my own judgement of not so long ago. Non the less, I started to lower the saddles with an allen key, checking for fret buzz as I do so. Now although I wasn't actually getting any perceiveable fret buzz when I played the strings in a normal fashion, what I did notice was the guitar started to sound more like a Gibson clone than a Strat. It may sound daft, but it made the overall string tone more middley like that of a humbucker style of guitar. I raised the strings again slightly and it was back to a Strat again (This Strat has US Standard Level Pole Pickups in it and when I say it sounds like a Strat, what I mean is that it sounds unmistakably like any classic Strat that you've heard). You have to bear in mind that because I have recently re-fretted this guitar, the frets and neck are as level as they will ever be and it is possible that the strings were lowered to the extent where there may have been some string buzz. If there was buzz present, it was probably happening evenly down the length of the string, which effectivly duisguised it as a change of tone. This may sound like a bit of a theory rather than fact, but its the only way I can explain why it happens. Wierd! But it does lead me to think that much of the "Classic Vintage Strat Sound" could be due to how the guitar is set up and the type of wood it is constructed of which alters the sound by its density. What do you reckon?

Martin.


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Posted: Sat May 15, 2010 4:48 am
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nickbeatnik wrote:
Isn't it to do with the action of the magnet on the string, as well as the fingerboard radius? The wound strings have a different mass, and interact with the poles differently, they don't generate as much signal as the unwound strings. Not a very scientific expln... hmmm.


Exactly, may not be a super boffin scientific explanation but it is right. The only string that is off is the G, if your using a 7 1/4" radius'd board. The B string being the highest tension generates the most signal, the wound G generated the least. Lower tension than the B string, coupled with a material that isnt as responsive to the magnet. Well thats changed now with the plain G. The string is more responsive to the magnetic field, but the tension is lower still.
All of that is relative to string height, which is set from radius.

BTW looking at my bladed humbuckers the blades are curved on both the tonezone and FS2 pickups.

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Posted: Sat May 15, 2010 6:54 am
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tried putting that through my vox amp and it worked


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Posted: Sat May 15, 2010 7:18 am
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nikininja wrote:
Ceri wrote:
Nuttin' to do with the fingerboard radius:
Cheers - C


Ah mate it is, of course it is. Reason being... etc

Er - no, no: all I meant was the poles don't follow the radius of the fingerboard. Which idea seemed to lie behind a question in an earlier post.

Obviously, it's all about the distance between the top of the pole and the string, as you say. Which, BTW, makes Eddie's closing remark about imbalance between bass and treble an interesting one.

And to Martin: regarding the "Straty-ness" of your pickup sound, have you thought about lowering the pickups? You say you like them set as close to the strings as possible without getting wolf-notes. Many people (including me, as you see from the picture) like the opposite.

Setting them low gives less output of course, but that is corrected with the amp's volume. The beneficial effects of lower pickups are a) more sustain (in that they are less sensitive to the initial attack and so register the note decay as a smoother curve; and b) any imbalance between the poles is lessened, since the differences become a smaller percentage of the total distance to the string.

That's the theory: and in practice many do find they get a more "Straty" tone from pickups set lower to the pickguard. Worth a try anyhow, if you're in a mood for tinkering...

Cheers - C


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Posted: Sat May 15, 2010 7:25 am
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I found a great thread on height setting over on the BareKnuckle website.

Quote:
On Strats it seems that the the Low"E" side of the pickups has a lot to do with the tone. The height of the bass side of the pickups changes the character of the sound . The height of the treble side of the pickups changes the attack.


http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=150c53b9d17582ecabdc451c92a8e880&topic=13846.0

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Posted: Sat May 15, 2010 7:35 am
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Ceri wrote:
And to Martin: regarding the "Straty-ness" of your pickup sound, have you thought about lowering the pickups? You say you like them set as close to the strings as possible without getting wolf-notes. Many people (including me, as you see from the picture) like the opposite.

Setting them low gives less output of course, but that is corrected with the amp's volume. The beneficial effects of lower pickups are a) more sustain (in that they are less sensitive to the initial attack and so register the note decay as a smoother curve; and b) any imbalance between the poles is lessened, since the differences become a smaller percentage of the total distance to the string.

That's the theory: and in practice many do find they get a more "Straty" tone from pickups set lower to the pickguard. Worth a try anyhow, if you're in a mood for tinkering...

Cheers - C


+1 on lowering the pickups, Ceri is right on the money there. For those who want it too it's more of an original or 'vintage' sound too, like the lower output pickups of the older guitars.

We all know that when the pups are too close to the strings on a strat the magnetic field pulls at the strings too strongly. This restricts their amplitude and vibration, resulting in less sustain, and a choked tone, and can even pull them out of tune. Some people call it 'stratitis'. It also risks the string thumping on the pole piece for a very un-musical sound! But this magnetic effect is not something that suddenly kicks in at a certain distance, it's a continuum right? It happens more and more as the pups get closer. So lowering the pups takes the bad effects of the magnetic pole pieces to an absolute minimum (given that yes, we still do have chunks of magnet on our guitar!). That gives the strings their best amplitude, sustain, and free vibration, and ultimately makes for better tone.

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