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Post subject: Is current trend of Staggered Pole Pickups a backward step?
Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 4:34 pm
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Hi All,

I am new to this forum, but not new to guitars. I've been a pro player in the music biz for over 30 years and I also repair/re-fret/re-finish guitars on a professional basis. I have purposely joined this forum to ask this question and although I feel I should be emailing Fender direct, I don't think I would get a suitable response. So here goes....

I am often asked to perform pickup modifications on customers guitars and one of the common ones is to replace Standard US Strat pickups for the Vintage or Texas Special type. I can never get my head around the logic of this one, as I believe it to be a backward step. These pickups have biased magnet poles, that is to say that they are of different heights. The highest being the 3rd string magnet then the 4th, 5th & 6th drop down a little lower progressively. The 2nd string magnet is the lowest and the 1st string magnet a little higher. Now when I play a guitar with either of these pickups installed, I find that the string volumes are unbalanced, with the 3rd string jumping right out. Given the biasing of the magnet poles this is not surprising. When these pickups were developed, electric guitar strings of the time predominantly had a wound 3rd string, which would naturally be quieter over a magnet than the same gauge as a plain. As electric guitar strings developed (due to there now being a market for them with the introduction of the electric guitar), naturally Fender re-designed their pickups to suit them. For reasons that I can only explain as peoples fantasies of old gear being the best, they take out perfectly good and better designed pickups and replace them with the types I have mentioned, then convince themselves that they sound better. Ha! Now to make matters worse, I find that Fender have started to fit staggered pole pickups on Strats as standard! Can anyone tell me that my findings are without foundation and incorrect?

Respectfully,

Martin.


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Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 5:04 pm
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It's funny you should mention this Martian. I replaced the pickguard on my JV strat the other day as it had sat in the music store before I bought it with the stickers on it... it had "sun spots" as I like to call them.

At any rate, I got fed up with what you just described and I leveled all the pole pieces. The JV sounds much better now IMO!

I don't recommend that this needs to be done to all pickups with biased pole pieces... this is the way I like it on my JV however. 8)


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Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 5:43 pm
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Well there obviously is a difference. I couldnt say what though, as I have zilch experience with level polepieces.

All I can tell you is that I had a set of BareKuckles pickups made for my customshop strat (£165 for handmade pickups to order=Win Win situation in my book). Anyways I dont know a fat lot about pickups, so went through my order with the man himself, Tim. When it came to polepieces he suggested that until you start getting to 12" radius'd boards and beyond that flat stagger doesnt offer much benefit. He did say that 9.5" is borderline you can go either way and not notice much difference, but that he does prefer staggered at that radius.
That pickup set are a low powered affair on alnicoII magnets with a very defined midrange and lots of clarity. I suppose the tonality of the pickup in question matters more than the 1/8th" stagger of the magnets. I further suppose that fenders current trend to bias pickups to either the treble side and scoop the mids, or peak the mids does the staggered polepieces no favours.

BTW welcome to the forums Umpdv5000.

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Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 11:22 pm
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Iv often had some of those thoughts. I always thought people much smarter than me figured that out.

A few thoughts in that vane:
If the fret board was flat shouldnt the pups should be flat? If not, shouldnt they follow the board?
What about lipstick or blade pups?

I read somewhere part of the equation is sonics & magnetic flux. I cant remember any of the details.

Im waiting to see how this tread turns out.

:?
Craig


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Post subject: Re: Is current trend of Staggered Pole Pickups a backward st
Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 2:04 am
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umpdv5000 wrote:
For reasons that I can only explain as peoples fantasies of old gear being the best, they take out perfectly good and better designed pickups and replace them with the types I have mentioned, then convince themselves that they sound better. Ha! Now to make matters worse, I find that Fender have started to fit staggered pole pickups on Strats as standard! Can anyone tell me that my findings are without foundation and incorrect?

Hi Martin, welcome to the Forum.

This issue has been discussed here several times before. Essentially, most would agree with your thoughts.

However, I find that my picking hand varies its attack to accommodate what my ear hears of the different string's output. I have a couple of Strats with the "vintage" stagger (higher G string magnet) in order to obtain the other characteristics of those pickups (lower output, etc) and I find I can switch between the different balances pretty much without thinking about it.

That was not always the case. When I was starting out (on a guitar with a high G magnet) it constantly confused me that I seemed to have to pick so hard to get equivalent sound from the top e in relation to the G string. I assumed I was doing something wrong, till I found out about it.

The pickups on my 2005 US Strat have the stagger set to suit an unwound G string. You'd have thought this would always be the default position, wouldn't you? How many of us use a wound third? Anyone...?

Cheers - C


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Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 2:43 am
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Martin I think what you describe definitely holds up. I have two Strats with Texas Specials fitted and one with Kinman Blues pickups. The Kinman pickups deliver much more even string to string balance and that's not by accident, the magnet stagger is quite different from the TX Specials.

I like both types of pickups for their own sounds.

There's quite a bit of detailed info on Chris Kinman's Website about this very subject, worth a read.

Cheers,

Snowy


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Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 4:17 am
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I agree with your observation Martin.I remember when I got my SRV,there was a noticeable difference in string balance .My first strat was purchased in 2001 and had the American Standards with the "custom stagger" to accomodate the modern string set with the solid G.My next strat was a Texas Special which I purchased in 03.This guitar came stock with the Texas Specials,but they had the modern stagger also.They sounded balanced.When I purchased the SRV I was shocked at how unbalanced the strings sounded .These also had the Texas Specials , but had the "vintage stagger " .Like Ceri said, you just learn to adjust your technique to accommodate it.To me its a trade off.It seems like alot of people want to change pickups (and texas specials are very popular ) to get the sound they want ,but its a sacrifice in string balance in order to do it.


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Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 5:44 am
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Having grown up through the Strat changes over the last 40 years I have noticed the unbalance that you are talking about but have become used to it,and I'm sure if I were to study my picking technique I would find pretty much the same thing that Ceri mentioned.
That being the case though I don't think it's so much a backwards step to many of us but a step in the direction of the imperfection of Fender's earlier designs....that to many is the mystique of the Strat sound...more in taste than anything else......but you have to know how to use the imperfections.
To my ears some of the newer pickups without the staggered pole pieces don't sound as good....and some of the "custom" pups with staggered poles don't sound as good as Fralins or Van Zandts....again a matter of personal taste.


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Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 11:10 am
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I prefer a "Modern stagger" not flat. The dimarzio area pickups have a modern stagger that takes into account a non-wound G.
I agree with the original poster that the vintage stagger is a problem with "modern strings"


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Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 11:20 am
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Sometimes a "period correct " guitar isnt the best idea.I wonder how many of us would rather have a slightly modified instrument that is balanced than a timeless wonder that is not.I really wonder how many people are even using wound G strings these days.


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Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 12:02 pm
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I'm with the original poster on this one. Staggered pickups are for a by-gone age, when wound 3rds were the common coin.

We've moved beyond that though, and I'm always slightly frustrated to play a guitar with a consequential dominant G string.

But if you want vintage level performance - it seems that maunfacturers make them staggered for authenticity.

As a compromise, I'm now well into SD flat poles, alnico 2 pro. My Strats now all wear them, and string balance is so much better.

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Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 2:00 am
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Thanks for the comments guys, it would appear to be pretty conclusive that there are others out there that notice the string imbalance and that I'm not just a grumpy old man having a pointless whinge.

As for that thing that one or two of you call "The Vintage Sound", well that's another thing that I can't quite get my head around. Now I appreciate that the first set of muso's to get a hold of a Strat made a particular sound with the limited amplifiers of the day, but to put that "Vintage Sound" down to a set of Staggered Pole Pickups, well I just don't agree. The response from a standard even pole Strat pickup differs little from that of the Staggered Pole version (with the exception of the distancing of the poles from the string), and if your like me, you will have a sound in your head that you want to achieve when you plug a guitar into an amp. I don't think that it is unreal to say that with today's amplification, you could plug in a Strat that had Vintage Style Pickups and one that had the even pole Pickups and make them both indistinguishable from each other. To which end makes me question why bother to choose pickups that unbalance the string response of a guitar if its not totally psychological?

Regards,

Martin.


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Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 4:32 am
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umpdv5000 wrote:
As for that thing that one or two of you call "The Vintage Sound", well that's another thing that I can't quite get my head around. Now I appreciate that the first set of muso's to get a hold of a Strat made a particular sound with the limited amplifiers of the day, but to put that "Vintage Sound" down to a set of Staggered Pole Pickups, well I just don't agree. The response from a standard even pole Strat pickup differs little from that of the Staggered Pole version (with the exception of the distancing of the poles from the string), and if your like me, you will have a sound in your head that you want to achieve when you plug a guitar into an amp. I don't think that it is unreal to say that with today's amplification, you could plug in a Strat that had Vintage Style Pickups and one that had the even pole Pickups and make them both indistinguishable from each other. To which end makes me question why bother to choose pickups that unbalance the string response of a guitar if its not totally psychological?

Hi again Martin. Well having agreed with you before I'm now going to politely disagree, slightly.

"Vintage" sound is not only about the stagger of the poles. It is predominantly to do with the lower output of early pickups. As I mentioned before, on a couple of Strats I put up with the incongruity of staggered poles in order to get the other characteristics of "vintage" spec pickups. Which to my ears are very real.

Mostly that's about output, partly it is to do with the right sort of magnets (I like AlNiCo IIs), and perhaps other tiny details come into it, such as the bevel on the poles (I really couldn't say on that last). Whatever, there's far more to it than just the stagger.

I like different sounds and modern pickups such as Lace Sensors and EMGs are amongst my faves. But there is a certain sort of clean, chimey tone that can only be got with "vintage" spec pickups, and I love that sound too.

Apparently the raised G pole is sometimes the price that must be paid to get that sound. I do agree with you entirely that it is an unnecessary price.

Cheers - C

PS Are you aware that on some (but not all) staggered sets it is possible to lower the G string magnet by just pushing it downwards? However, check the underside of the pup before attempting it: doing it on the wrong sort of pickup will destroy it irreparably. Take care...


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Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 4:42 am
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I agree with Ceri.Its a price we are willing to pay to obtain that vintage sound we all know and love.Fender knows this and thats why they havent made any adjustments on their vintage spec pickups.I even tried using a set of 10s with the wound G string and it gave great balance,but tuned to E, I had to practically bend it off the fretboard to bend it a whole step.Not a great option IMO.


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Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 5:24 am
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Hello again chaps,

I thought that may provoke a response like that. I do concede that the vintage pickups may have a lower output, which will of course affect the end tone. Now this having been clarified and the fact that you say it is the price you pay for the vintage sound, do you think that a further modification by Fender could put things into a more agreeable context. ie: Suppose Fender were to build a pickup using the same metal content for the magnets and the same amount of windings around them as the Vintage design, but made them without the stagger. Do you think that this would still give you that Vintage sound that you are used to with an improvement of string balance, or do you think that the missing staggered poles would detract from the sound?

Martin.


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