We are only hearing one side of the story so keep this in mind about my post.



Fenders overseas distributors tend to rip off its customers. You can pay up to double the price of what they sell for in the US.



Agree



Exactly the opposite. How do you expect fraudulent people to get caught. It adds to the problem if people are not reported. If many reports came in and the same name keeps coming up the Police are more likely to do something about it.



It would be nice to see a refund automatically given but they tend to want the item returned if it is over a certain value. Ebay and paypal have their own rules when it suits them as well. The seller seems to be operating as a business has sold an item to someone which has been proven to be counterfeit. They have evidence of this. The seller is denying it but despite that if a counterfeit guitar has been imported into the country the buyer now holds the responsibility to surrender it to the police.

In fact customs can confiscate it any old time if they knew about it. If you play it by the law it is to the buyers advantage. If he has to return it he might still lose his money and be out of pocket two sets of freight and the item value. Paypal should find in his favor and then he should do the right thing and hand it in.

I was going to make a few comments on that post in general but most of it is really here and there stuff anyways, some of it rather rhetorical (although I admit and apologize for any mis-information I may have provided on the CA series...I'm certainly not an expert on those by any stretch of the imagination). I did want to address this one comment though.

Of all people, I certainly do appreciate the need to "vent" from time to time and of course when someone get's the shallow end of a deal, I can't blame them for wanting to try and help others avoid making similar mistakes. That said...and this really is just my opinion here and it doesn't really mean anything but, the simply truth really is that people will never learn. I take the OP here as being reasonably intelligent and informed about guitars...I'm not really sure there's much else here the OP really could have done before the sale that could have really changed anything (although I'm still sad to hear the instrument was destroyed...fake or otherwise, it was still a guitar and a Strat). On the other hand, if you tend to watch these forums the way a good many of us do, you'll see that similar threads...granted to varying degree...tend to pop up around here on average of once or twice a month. Usually it's the same thing...someone got burned buying a fake. Usually it's either an Ebay auction or a Craigslist item (and there's no reason to get burned with Craigslist assuming you look at the instrument first).

I'm not trying to be disrespectful to anyone here but I think that typically you have 2 types of forum users here in this regard. You have the folks like myself who either have no life or the internet is simply part of their lives, who check in mostly every day while we're having our morning coffee. But then you also have the person who comes to the forum only occasionally with specific questions or issues and I think the folks who get frequently burned buying fake guitars falls typically fall under the second category. Instead of coming here to ask questions before they buy their new guitar, they come here afterward when something appears to be wrong. If they had of done a little research first, including looking around on these forums, they might have seen that there are a lot of fakes out there and maybe even learned some of the things to look for.

Again in the OP's case, that doesn't appear to be the situation...the OP does seem to know a bit about what's going on here. If that guitar was a fraud (as it apparently was), it was a good one...based on the pics in the auction, it would have been hard for even an experienced Strat hound to tell based on the pictures alone.

So honestly, while it's nice to think that maybe we're helping some folks with this...and if it helps even one person from doing something costly or foolish it is certainly worth it, the truth is that most people won't read any of this until it's too late. Sad, but probably true.

Just rambling...
Jim

Hi Shockwarrior: I'm not saying how it ought to be. Just how it actually is.

Try going to you local police and telling them some guy misrepresented an item he sold you on Ebay and see what their reaction is. And if they don't politely point you towards the door straight away then tell them the seller of the item is in a different country (as is the case here). See how much action you get out of them.

I'm talking from experience. Right here on the Forum Nikininja shared with us a bogus vintage Strat sale he was being offered on the net. He and I are in one country, the putative seller was supposedly in another and the auction website was run from a third. Were the police of any of those countries interested? Of course they weren't.

In my country and I'm sure in yours there are specialist police units devoted to internet crime. They are utterly smothered in huge cases where people are selling fake tickets running into millions; the 419 scam; phishing frauds; software piracy... Etc etc etc.

You think they have time for someone who put a bogus decal on a guitar headstock?

Hey, prove me wrong...

Cheers - C

Trilight I am really shocked that Paypal told you to destroy the guitar as this is the first time I have ever heard of anything like this. The good news is I would expect you to get a total refund.

Shockwarrior I still have to agree with Ceri on the police matter, and unless it is a ring that is trafficking heavy with Asian counterfeits there is nothing that is going to happen to individuals with single guitars as the bottom line the person is just going to say I bought it like that and thought it was original. If you want to get technical check out just about all those online stores that sell outright Asian counterfeit guitars- they JUST ABOUT ALL TAKE PAYPAL. Now if a company or individual was selling counterfeit currency do you think Paypal would be involved- NO. Because when they all would get pinched by the Feds, Paypal would be a co conspirator on the indictment. Yet when it comes to selling fake Fenders, Gibsons, PRS, Rickenbackers and the likes Paypal has no problem making money off of them. I am surprised the big guitar companies have not had there lawyers have a little talk with Paypal on this matter...

This was a really good post and very interesting on all acounts. But it just makes you think how many of us have bought a second hand guitar and performed an autopsy on it and just about stripped the whole guitar. I know I have not, as there are certain things I look for and that is it. But can I or anyone else swear every part is original on a guitar 10 to 20 years old or even 3 years old for that matter. I am just glad trilight got this straightened out though he had to go to an awful amount of trouble on a $600 guitar.

Ceri after taking all this in and looking at all the pictures and since you are just about a certified luthier lol I am interested to hear your final take on this whole situation.

Wow - that is so much NOT a compliment I deserve, but thank you very kindly!

That goes double, because I have absolutely no personal experience of the California Series Strats - which is why you've heard no opinion out of me on the guitar at the center of all this.

However, the evidence and photos trilight posted from his tech's autopsy certainly seemed convincing. Unless someone knows better I can't see a reason to doubt what they're saying.

There's an interesting side note on the "legality" issue, though. Way back on this thread someone pointed out that the seller genuinely might not know that the guitar is not legit. He might have bought it as is and be selling it on in good faith.

From what trilight has told us I guess many of us would doubt that - but I bet it's the line the seller would take if the police ever did come calling. Be almost impossible to prove otherwise, whatever the truth really is.

Get a refund out of Paypal and notch it up to experience: that's the bottom line on this one...

Cheers - C

By the way, straycat, that is a very good point indeed.

In my part of the world and I'm sure in yours too Paypal frequently closes down the actions of folks selling bogus items such as fake concert tickets and similar. How the heck come they don't do the same regarding fake guitars? Not only the companies but all of us can spot those as fakes, so why is their business allowed to continue?

Good question. I'm afraid I think we can guess part of the answer, can't we?

- C

Thanks again to all who have chatted & shared opinions over this. I for one have learnt alot along the way.

Ceri, alot of your recent statements are similar to that which has been on my mind.

I did come here and quickly type away, rather selfishly. I come to this forum for tech info reasonably often, and get involved with forum chatting only at times...last time again when I was after assistance in confirming a taos turquoise color of an old fender strummer i have & am fond of. I needed to re-register at that time as I had forgotten my prior user name & password....so it had been a while before that color discussion.

Overall I have managed approx 8 ebay sales sites, and at present 5 are active with one having 3000-4000 running at 100% pos rating, and others similar % 300-500, and lowest % at 98+ . So I realise this seller has put some hard yards in getting where he is, and the more I think it is difficult to understand why he'd sell a copy, and indeed why he refused the very polite requests to return it to him for refund at his postal expense. I also realise on ebay at times you are only as good as your last few trades...it can be fickle at both ends of the transaction.

He has told me that he bought the guitar back in last Jan, and that the lace pick up guard he also sold to another Aussie were from the cali he bought. he lace guard i was told had pick ups that didnt work and faulty pots - so I understand why he'd be thinking of spending USD$199 on a newer working loaded guard as to get the guitar as a whole up and running, and saleable. That still DOESNT JUSTIFY selling the faulty loaded guard to another without disclosing the problems.

Perhaps he is working hard on picking up used gear sales in US, maybe some 2nd hand shop roadtrips, and then back home to work on the gear. I ADMIRE THAT....i think it is great when you get to work on and enjoy what truly interests you. BUT IF YOU BUY A LEMON YOU CUT YOUR LOSSES, NOT TRY AND TURN IT INTO ANOTHER LOSS.

Ah..VERY valid point Shockwarrior made : you are indeed only hearing one side of the story...and two always need to be heard before too many firm opinions made.
(sorry, i dont know how to add the prior quotes in to allow a cleaner line of discussion)
I would have no problem with discussing this with the seller on this forum. I havent spoken again with the seller since he starting speaking of his lack of $'s for his dogs ligament operations, as at that time it seemed we were going nowhere, and I walked off thinking ..'is this guy just taking the pis* now'
I have received a full refund from paypal, inclusive of my initial $'s spent ot have goods sent from USA to AUS.
Paypal have also asked if I want to pursue further reimbursement of money I may have lost in this transaction, as per :

We have concluded our investigation into your case and have decided in your favour. We were able to recover $719.00 USD, and this amount has been credited to you. Please allow five business days for this adjustment to be posted. If you are due any additional funds, we will make our best effort to recover the balance from the seller. If the seller's account has insufficient funds to complete the refund owedto you, please be assured that we will take appropriate action against theseller's account, which may include limitation of the seller's account privileges.

The refund payment has cleared already so has been finalised.

I feel for the seller as he did spend some $'s on putting the instrument together...OK, even if it was only the pickguard that can be proven. BUT he did have many opportunities to accept goods returned - the only mexican standoff tha occurred was that he would not pay the return freighting, and I did not think it my obligation to lose $100+ due to someone seemingly try to cheat me for substantially more.

What happens if I didnt know it was a copy....kept it for 1 year, then sold it on as genuine....I can end up being in serious trouble.

anyway...the valuable lesson here i guess, Paypal do honour their policies regarding counterfeit goods.

Interestingly, i am aware of one other case with paypal in which goods were sent, then stated as not described, and so buyer received refund. he then sent goods back and damaged the goods in the way he packed them. paypal agreed and also refunded the seller....ie , both parties were reimbursed....I CANNOT seeing that scenario occurring too often though.

As Snowy pointed out..it is a sinking in the gut feeling to find out you have been dooped, and for those of you who havent experienced it...hope you never do !

I see a few mention ebay and their codes of conduct recently - they surely have alot to answer for. As i understand it they only cancel counterfeit or trademark infringement sales if the rights holder contacts them and complains...also accepting other members complaints in certain situations....again, in their best interest to pocket the $'s whether real or fake.

A fine example found on Craigslist...

"
72 BABY BLUE STRAT WITH STRAT HARD CASE APPRAISED FOR 5000 THEY SAID IT WAS PERFICT THE PLACE THE LOOKED AT IT SAID IT HAD SOME TYPE OF VERY EXPENSIVE PICK UPS ON IT IM NOT REALY A MUSIC PERSON SO I DONT KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS BUT IM SURE YOU DO....POSTING FOR A FRIEND WHO DOES NOT HAVE A CAMERA CALL XXXXX AT XXX-XXX-XXXX...THIS WILL NOT LAST IT IS BEAUTIFUL "

Can anyone explain how it's allegedly worth $5000?

The point I was trying to make about the police is to stick to the correct process in your country. Only if you think a crime is being committed in this case a fake/counterfeit. If it was a description dispute you can battle it out with paypal and the seller if you like.

It may be pedantic but if you follow the correct process paypal will be less inclined to get cute with send it back type "help". To me it's just wrong to send it back to them so they can sell it again and someone else gets lumped with the fake. Also who wants to pay postage on a $50 copy sending it back international.

Same goes for if you buy one unwittingly from any other country with another type of payment system. The more people that say the Police won't do anything etc doesn't make the problem go away. It takes seconds to lodge a complaint it goes into their computer and they can cross reference it if they need to later.

People fail to report other more serious crimes where they have been a victim of thinking the police won't do anything. Whether they do something or not you have less control over but reporting it is at least something you can do.

Fraud is only getting worse and I bet if the seller was a legitimate criminal his local police would be really interested to get that information passed to them. In this case I think its more likely looking at his sales record he brought a fake and is returning his misfortune to someone else.

In my experience of the police, taking that course of action will likely get you arrested for wasting police time, depending on how insistant you are. Politely being shown to the door is about the best outcome and a absolute rarity unless you've got the one decent copper in 6000 on the desk that day.



To bring any legal action against the seller surely you'd have to prove that they knowingly sold a fake to defraud you.

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No no and no

Your lodging a complaint not asking the police to go and arrest him.
What they do with the information is up to them.

How much money do you guys need to get scammed out of before the police listen to you in the UK? Isn't $700 enough over there?

Another example and assuming yet again that the seller is knowingly doing this.

What if someone sold you a fake for $700 on the street and you didn't notice till you got it home and you had his email and he said bugger off.

What if PayPal refuses to refund the money? How much a loss are you willing to take and will you just shrug it off and let them move onto the next target?

Are you helping to deter fraud or aiding it?
I'm exaggerating here but I'm reading 'don't bother with the police' or similar more frequently.

If they are to do anything you have to give them as much information as you can. Saying I was ripped off on eBay and give them a user name and well you can expect how far anyone would want to take that.

The amount doesnt matter to them as it's consumer law not criminal. As always they tell you that a perfectly good system has been put into action by the shop (in this case ebay). That you should use that before anything else. It's got nothing to do with the UK either. All countries expect you to do your utmost to find a peaceful resolution before you involve authorities. Infact between the Citizens Advice Bureau and The Trading Standards Organization theres absolutely no need at all here to involve the police in any transaction. Infact such cases rarely get to magistrates court, let alone Crown. Their dealt with in small claims hearings, should the above mentioned bodies not get any joy.

Now being as though Austrailia was/is (unsure) a part of the CommonWealth, it's laws and legal system will be much like the UK's.

Sorry mate we have proper systems in this country. The only thing we lack is a active government Were the envy of the world.

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No no and no

First thing I would like to say is this should open some eyes to guys who are scares to death of buying a guitar on ebay. To be honest after taking 3 years off from ebay I was shocked at how everything has changed in favor of the buyer. I for one am not complaining as I have only bought and never sold but do have a few friends who do a good amount of buisness and say between the fees they have to pay and getting screwed it is not worth selling anymore. But if you know what you are doing and what to look for you can still save a ton and get a great buy. Yes there is always the chance what happened to trilight can happen as I stated it has happened to me but I had my money back in a heart beat and I am the type that ask 20 questions and if I am told something is mint I will flip over the slightest ding, so it better be mint and I always make this clear. That is where I came up with the guitar autopsy because I tell every seller it is going to my friends shop for one.lol

I also stay away from guitars I am not familiar with like Gibsons. My friend Mike that owns the shop I hang in had asked me if I ever came across a Frampton sig to let him know, and about a week later I found a nice one. I went in the store and made him look it up and in less than a minute he said it was a fake, in fact I had posted that guitar here last year but to be honest I could not tell, till he pointed out things on Gibsons that were not correct. I even contacted the seller and told him and he pulled it right away, but even though he had over 300 transactions and told me he got taken but was going to hang it on his wall because it was so nice looking, I could tell he was full of $@!& because that is not how someone who got beat would act.Just stick with guitars you know and you will be fine.

As far as the law Shockwarrior I can send you to at least 5 sites that are selling Asian made guitars of all different makes and models yet none of the big companies have had them shutdown which really confuses me. And every day they keep making them better and better. This is a real serious problem ,and if the lawyers of multi million dollar businesses seem helpless a few complaints in a police station are not going to do a thing, and I am just keeping it real. Watch someone try and sell a Vanhalen Frankenstrat on ebay, if it does not sell right away it gets pulled right off by Eddies lawyers. I know quite a few guys who make these as a hobby and because they are truly VH freaks.They all hang on a few VH sites I drop in on and they will comeback and say ebay took it down. Maybe guitar companies should see who Ed is using.

Yeah I know all about the fake sites.

Interesting to know that you can sell counterfeits/fakes and commit fraud in the UK and its not a criminal offense however.

It's not necessarily fraud anywhere in the free world. You have to prove that the seller knowingly defrauded you to criminaly prosecute them. It comes down to all that inoccent till proven guilty nonsense you lot gave away when the patriot act was introduced.

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No no and no