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Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 2:02 pm
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Ok...just an extra $.02 worth here and as always, just my own opinions.

Alrighty, based on what I'm seeing here I think it's a pretty safe bet that's -not- an American Fender (assuming we haven't already all came to that conclusion). If nothing else, the trem cover and that small trem block, along with the other things already mentioned pretty much verify that. That said however, I think it's quite possible it could still be a Fender...maybe an MIM. The tooling in the neck pocket looks very similar to my '96 MIM (although not exact) and the tag on the neck heal certainly matches my '96. Here's a couple shots of my '96 for reference...

Image

Image

As you can see here, while things are exactly identical, they are pretty darned close. If you compare these directly with the OP's pictures...ehhh...could be. For the sake of comparison, here's a shot of the neck heel from my '03 MIM Standard...

Image

While this neck also has a bar code, you can see part of that same sticker that's on both my '96 MIM and the OP's guitar...Mexican, American or other, the neck does appear to be real Fender...just not really sure what though.

Now going back to the headstock for a moment too...I just took a look at the picture of the headstock on my '03 MIM and except for the actual serial number and the country of origin, I'll be damned if they don't look nearly identical...take a look...

Image


As far as the neck itself goes...I would take a look at that logo -very- carefully. I could most certainly be wrong here but I almost suspect that maybe someone just altered an MIM logo some how. Looking at the serial number on the OP's headstock there and the slightly odd spacing around the "N1", I wonder if perhaps that serial number may have at one time said "MN1" and was changed just a bit. It's possible that the whole logo could just be a replacement as well. With all the folks who get bent on the whole MIM vs. MIA issue, maybe someone get their shorts in a bunch because their guitar said "Made in Mexico" instead of "Made in the USA" so they just changed the logo. It seems really unlikely though that it's really an American.

Just based on the pictures (both old and new) I would really swear that neck looks like an MIM...and I strongly suspect that the body may be too. I'd still want to see some measurements to verify it but to me, except for the few small obvious details already mentioned, that thing just really looks like an MIM to me (with what looks like some really decent pickups).

That said, I suspect this sucker's also a pretty decent instrument too...probably plays and sounds pretty sweet. The only nasty thing I'm really seeing is that trem block...I'd change that myself (or the entire bridge) to something a bit beefier. If it were me, I think I'd just upgrade that bridge a bit and then play the crap out of the thing and enjoy it for what it is.

Okies...again just my thoughts there...hope it helps!

Jim


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Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 3:30 pm
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01GT eibach wrote:
The body is wrong, too. The middle screws in the back plate are not mis-aligned like they would be on a real Fender. No offense, but unless you know for sure ...
I think it would be safe to assume everything is non-Fender. It looks to be a decent quality counterfeit, top to bottom.


Hi eibach, no offense at all :) I was looking for experienced user opinions and luckily I got many. Thanks for taking the time and post yours! :wink:

Cheers,
Javier


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Post subject: Thanks to everybody!
Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 3:49 pm
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Hi guys ( and some gals maybe? :) )

Just wanted to thank you all again. I wasn't expecting so many (and quite good) answers. I just wish I did consult you before buying the guitar some years ago.

To sum up all the opinions above: it doesn't seem like an American Stratocaster for sure, it's more closely to a MIM guitar (probably with Might Mite parts also).

Regarding to the sound, I can tell it sounds pretty nice (maybe because of the good single coils) but at the end, it's still a guitar and it was made for one single purpose for sure :)

And one more thought about this is that I'll keep close to the Fender community for sure. You did an excelent job guys! Thank you :)

Cheers!
from,
Javier


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Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 4:52 pm
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OK, I think I may have an answer for this. I have a feeling that this strat was produced during a transitional phase, or it was a warranty repair.

OP's supposed 1991 American Standard Headstock- the logos are the same, except for "STRATOCASTER" lettering is different. This varies from year to year with the 'contemporary logo' of the eighties to the mid-90's ish:
Image

My 1993 Headstock:
Image

My 1990 Headstock:
Image

The body I believe to be either an early American Standard Poplar, or made in mexico. There can be the possibility that it is Basswood.

The neck is doing my head in, it is no-doubt mexican and it is definately made by Fender- possibly built for the USA factory.

My conclusion is that the combination of the pick-ups, the body and the neck- it is derived from a MIM standard strat- an early one at that.

Based on the year- I have two explanations:

1, this could be a prototype for the new Strat to be made at the Mexico Ensenada facitlity-

2, USA or Mexico neck production was down, (If you cast your minds back to 1997 California Strat= 21frets, texas specials, thin nitro finish- assembled in Mexico) and MIM necks were sent to the USA to be finished from Ensenada to compensate- which may very well account for the high quality pickups installed.

or possibly=

This guitar could be the result of a warranty claim where the neck has been replaced for a new one. I do know that necks can sometimes be made in the USA and finished in Mexico.

I dont believe this strat is illegitimate.

Of all strats, why on earth would you want to counterfeit an american standard with an mim neck? it just doesnt make any sense to me. Only a muppet would do that.

Another thing, note the volume knob- what are the markings under the numbers? that just throws everything Ive just said out the window..


I dont know... im just throwing that one out there.. :lol: :wink:

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Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 7:38 pm
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Early 90s american strats had the same logo as recent MIMs before going to the spaghetti-style logo of today, just some FYI before you go assuming that neck is a MIM neck.


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Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 10:23 pm
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rhcpfitz wrote:
Early 90s american strats had the same logo as recent MIMs before going to the spaghetti-style logo of today, just some FYI before you go assuming that neck is a MIM neck.

That's why we'rer all syaing it was a good repro of the logo. the trussrod access inlay is black. it is walnut on MIA's. That means that logo doesn't belong on that neck. black trussrod access inlay are used on MIM necks, but also on Mighty Mite replacement necks, and probably on others, but not on made in USA fender necks.

I think Jim is right, someone altered the MIM serial number. like I said before, the logo is identical to my 90's USA except for some peculiarities in the serial number.

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Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 11:08 pm
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Twelvebar wrote:
rhcpfitz wrote:
Early 90s american strats had the same logo as recent MIMs before going to the spaghetti-style logo of today, just some FYI before you go assuming that neck is a MIM neck.

I think Jim is right, someone altered the MIM serial number. like I said before, the logo is identical to my 90's USA except for some peculiarities in the serial number.


Have a close look at the serialm number though- There isnt any space for a "MN" to be scrubed for a "N". This has me perplexed as to where this strat comes from :?

One thing I have noticed, have a close look at the outer edges... it looks like the outer edges are raised, something you dont even see on a 20yr old American Standard.. just throwing that out there too

I truly belive this is either a special run, a warranty job or a result of neck production ceasing in the Corona plant..

Otherwise, why would anyone want to reproduce an american standard neck like this... even today?

I would want to believe that it would have been easier to produce a '60s spaghetti logo instead, at least you could see that someone was trying to make a little cash in the process. Not to mention that given the age of this neck- and it does look old, it looks like it was done in the 90's, who would have the abilities and the know-how to reproduce such a counterfet logo perfectly? as if they did, they would probably go for a higher ticket one instead, like a 50's logo.

I think for a perfect logo reproduction- it looks too old, and its too perfect.

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Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 11:20 pm
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Blertles wrote:
Twelvebar wrote:
rhcpfitz wrote:
Early 90s american strats had the same logo as recent MIMs before going to the spaghetti-style logo of today, just some FYI before you go assuming that neck is a MIM neck.

I think Jim is right, someone altered the MIM serial number. like I said before, the logo is identical to my 90's USA except for some peculiarities in the serial number.


Have a close look at the serialm number though- There isnt any space for a "MN" to be scrubed for a "N". This has me perplexed as to where this strat comes from :?

One thing I have noticed, have a close look at the outer edges... it looks like the outer edges are raised, something you dont even see on a 20yr old American Standard.. just throwing that out there too

I truly belive this is either a special run, a warranty job or a result of neck production ceasing in the Corona plant..

Otherwise, why would anyone want to reproduce an american standard neck like this... even today?

I would want to believe that it would have been easier to produce a '60s spaghetti logo instead, at least you could see that someone was trying to make a little cash in the process. Not to mention that given the age of this neck- and it does look old, it looks like it was done in the 90's, who would have the abilities and the know-how to reproduce such a counterfet logo perfectly? as if they did, they would probably go for a higher ticket one instead, like a 50's logo.

I think for a perfect logo reproduction- it looks too old, and its too perfect.
I could get you a 'perfect' Fender logo from any era for all the big models including reverse writing for 'hendrix' models, for around $20(this includes the contour body logo, and a duplicate of each in case yoou screwup applying it.). That Nineties logo (of which I have one,) is really similar to one used in the mid 60's, only on the old ones the patent numbers were where the serial numbers are on those. once you have the logo itself on file, the serial number part is cake to replicate.

the telling feature here is the Black trussrod access insert. there was no period where they used them on USA strats.

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Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 11:42 pm
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Twelvebar wrote:
Blertles wrote:
Twelvebar wrote:
rhcpfitz wrote:
Early 90s american strats had the same logo as recent MIMs before going to the spaghetti-style logo of today, just some FYI before you go assuming that neck is a MIM neck.

I think Jim is right, someone altered the MIM serial number. like I said before, the logo is identical to my 90's USA except for some peculiarities in the serial number.


Have a close look at the serialm number though- There isnt any space for a "MN" to be scrubed for a "N". This has me perplexed as to where this strat comes from :?

One thing I have noticed, have a close look at the outer edges... it looks like the outer edges are raised, something you dont even see on a 20yr old American Standard.. just throwing that out there too

I truly belive this is either a special run, a warranty job or a result of neck production ceasing in the Corona plant..

Otherwise, why would anyone want to reproduce an american standard neck like this... even today?

I would want to believe that it would have been easier to produce a '60s spaghetti logo instead, at least you could see that someone was trying to make a little cash in the process. Not to mention that given the age of this neck- and it does look old, it looks like it was done in the 90's, who would have the abilities and the know-how to reproduce such a counterfet logo perfectly? as if they did, they would probably go for a higher ticket one instead, like a 50's logo.

I think for a perfect logo reproduction- it looks too old, and its too perfect.
I could get you a 'perfect' Fender logo from any era for all the big models including reverse writing for 'hendrix' models, for around $20(this includes the contour body logo, and a duplicate of each in case yoou screwup applying it.). That Nineties logo (of which I have one,) is really similar to one used in the mid 60's, only on the old ones the patent numbers were where the serial numbers are on those. once you have the logo itself on file, the serial number part is cake to replicate.

the telling feature here is the Black trussrod access insert. there was no period where they used them on USA strats.


Yeah these days with the internet and modern computer technology, you can buy/make anything as far things like this are concerned :) That was different in the 90's though

Im thinking if someone did want to do it, and if they were that good at it, why would they go skint on the neck? like they were 90% there with the logo- all they needed to do was make a 22 fret neck with a walnut skunk stripe and they would have it...

this is along the lines as to what I was taslking about before:

http://www.classicandcoolguitars.co.uk/ ... fornia.htm

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Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 11:51 pm
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California series, assembled in mexico, with some American parts. Again the serial number would be different, it would have the AMXN prefix, and serial number on the back of the headstock, on the ball part.

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Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 8:22 am
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Ok...what the heck...I'll throw a whole nickle in here this time.

Blertles wrote:
Otherwise, why would anyone want to reproduce an american standard neck like this... even today?


I've seen a couple of responses now as to "why" anyone would change the logo and that it doesn't make sense. First reason; -Money-. Maybe someone wasn't being terribly greedy or maybe they thought they couldn't get away with forging a "vintage instrument" but maybe they thought they'd get an extra $200 or $300 by changing the guitars logo to USA. Not really that hard to figure out on that one alone.

Second reason; pride. Let's face it, there is an ever and on-going debate about MIM's vs. MIA's and there -are- some people who look at MIM's as little more than lowly "imitations". It's not a huge stretch of the imagination to think someone might want their guitar to say "Made in USA", even if it wasn't. It's also quite possible that maybe someone just wanted to see if they could do a convincing job of it (and from the pics, they did!). Also as Twelvebar suggested, it could have even been an after-market repair at some point or even simply a partscaster (which certainly seems quite possible).

Quote:
Yeah these days with the internet and modern computer technology, you can buy/make anything as far things like this are concerned Smile That was different in the 90's though


While I will agree that it's -a lot- easier these days...or at least more convenient, it was certainly possible in the 90's and even the 80's and earlier (otherwise you wouldn't have had logos on Strats back in the 50's and 60's!). I'm sure that most small prints shops could have easily knocked a few of these off in rather convincing detail -long- before the days of the internet and inkjet printers! Being able to do in in Photoshop now a days and print it yourself in your own home just makes it a lot more convenient.


I would also suggest that just because it looks older, like it's been on there for a while, doesn't mean it actually has been. Ok...honestly, doing a fake logo is a peace of cake these days for someone who has a bit of experience. For example, here's two fake logos from my own guitar collection...


Image

Please note that on this guitar, I did in fact leave the "Crafted in Indonesia" along with the original Squier serial number in tact on the back of the neck and please know that I -never- have any intentions of selling this instrument. I mainly did this logo to go with the aesthetics of doing a "70's like" instrument. Now I didn't even do what I consider to be a "good" job here...it's pretty easy to see this one is a fake. All I really wanted to do here was see if I could do it. However -if- I had of wanted to do it really convincing, it wouldn't have been terribly difficult either.


Image

Ok...I wouldn't exactly call this one a "fake" as much as it's simply a restoration of the original logo (which after at least 3 refinishes was -gone-). Ok...it took me about 2 weeks to do this logo since my inkjet doesn't actually print in "white" but again, I'd like to think it's still pretty convincing.


Now in the case of a "vintage look", with the Strat I had above, I could have easily refinished the entire neck in a tinted lacquer. Certainly there are a lot of folks these days who are doing relic-like finishes...some of them very good. Also as a person who has done a couple of these now, I have to honestly say that it wouldn't really be that hard to "alter" an original logo as I suggested above...and still make it look convincing. Gently and carefully scrape of the "MN1" and the "Mexico", apply the change, touch it up with some carefully tinted lacquer and an air brush...with a bit of work, it would certainly be possible.

In other words, just because it looks like it may have been on there back in the 90's, doesn't mean it actually has been...at least not all of it.


Quote:
like they were 90% there with the logo- all they needed to do was make a 22 fret neck with a walnut skunk stripe and they would have it...


My guess would be cost. If this neck was indeed faked, it would go without saying I think that a Mexican neck (or even a Squier or Mighty-Mite neck) would cost less than the 22 fretter with the Walnut inlay...which would essentially be an American Strat replacement :-).


Now I'm not saying that this couldn't be, as other's have suggested a "transition era" instrument (or neck at least)...it's certainly possible. For that matter, it's possible that perhaps something happened on a certain day at the Corona plant and they ended up using a couple of MIM necks on a few American guitars (the two plants are after all, just a few hours down the road from each other). It's certainly possible the guitar could be a "one off" as well. -If- we knew for sure that the neck there was original to that body, I might except that a bit easier but again there are issues with the body there to that are suspicious (the trem cover hole spacing and the trem block for example). If it were just one of these small details, it might be easier to over-look but there are a few details here that suggest something's just not completely right and when you consider the ease of faking an instrument now a days, it just really seems unlikely that this instrument is authentic "as is".

Just some things to consider.
Jim


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Post subject:
Posted: Fri May 07, 2010 6:46 am
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Jim mate, your an absolute champion with your posts :)

I have just made another observation that perhaps everyone has over-looked with this logo...

Notice the spacing between "Fender" and "STRATOCASTER"- and compare with the others... :wink: :idea: I think that a part of the logo is intact, the other part non-original.

Early MIM Squiers had an issue with logo adhesive bubbling under climate changes, I had a strat that the laquer actually split right through the centre of that logo, and the "Squier Series" actually flaked off. Lucky for me, I was doing after school work with a luthier for absolutely no wages at all (I volunteered to learn) and in return as he could barely feed his family himself, he kindly tinted the neck and fixed the logo & applied a matte finish to the rear of the neck. I didnt care that I wasnt paid, I was absolutely chuffed at what he did to my guitar.

Interestingly enough, he had an agreement with Direct Imports Ltd who are the supply chain for Gibson products to do warranty work. We recieved a batch of Les Pauls, (Standards, Studio's and Specials- 15 in total) that had extreme cracking on the headstock finish.

We were supplied logos from gibson, "Gibson" "Les Paul Model" and "Les Paul Special"- we ended up spraying in 2pac lacquer as the Nitro we used somehow reacted badly with the logos. Plus, we were advised to do the cheapest job possible. At the age of 16, that was the day I was introduced to copious amounts of sanding, while my mentor drank tea & ate biscuits :lol: They looked great though. No-one could tell the difference.



Ok Ill put this to rest now- something is up with that logo, thats for sure. Lucky its not attached to a 22 fret neck otherwise someone would have been duped for sure and taken to the cleaners.

I used to hate these threads, but I actually like to test my own knowlege on these now :wink:

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Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 6:03 pm
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Hi all,
I read posts every now and then on these forums and made an account to clear up this thread.
There's a lot of speculation going on about US-made mim, etc and the mystery non-offset backplate holes.

This is a MiM fender guitar. That decal is obviously put on over the finish in an attempt to make it look Us-made, everyone can see that.

This guitar dates from 1993 or 1994. It was part of the squier series guitars which originally had terrible electronics but lovely necks and nice bodies but for some reason all the silver-logo ones had parallel holes(and some black-logo ones too, i think). All this cobbling apparently had something to do with the 93 mexico plant fire and the winding down of the squier series and the ramping up of licensing to squier. That's why some have poor tuners and 50% have fender tuners and fender bridges with the then-standard-for-mexico half zinc block.

Anyway, if you feel the ball of your headstock you will probably be able to feel a slight patch where the decal was sanded off. Also, it seems, the necks and bodies for most/all of these things were corona-cut and mexico-finished.
I imagine the previous owner knew all this and decided that with "american" wood he'd put american electrics in and for god-knows what reason put a terrible attempt at a decal on.

I own one of these and it's nice. But i'm doing (almost) the same thing...putting in cts pots and T/S pickups but i'd never change my mim fender decal...if money was a forgers concern...surely anyone can google search fake fender in 2 minutes and clearly see an after-the-fact decal *shrug*

a bit of a rambling post but hopefully that should clear up a few other peoples mystery fenders, too.


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Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 6:16 pm
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actually that post wasnt as long as i thought, just seemed it. In that case i'll stick a couple more things out there for anyone else who runs into what is probably one of these guitars:

1) one of the things i wondered about was my neck pocket: it has SQU in it (the beginning of squier, i assume) in addition to all the usual fender markings...i'd consider sanding that out....but i probably wont. That's not to say someone else wouldnt...so if you have one showing signs of being a 1993 MIM with no neck pocket markings but a nicely sanded pocket, that could be another hint.

2) on the guitar this post was started about it looks like there's one CTS pot and two mini pots..i cant tell but that's what it looks like. If that's the case this is almost definitely the poor-electronics MIM because they used mini-pots.

The moral is: Dont hate your squier series...just hate the pickups :) it is a real fender after all.


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Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 10:17 pm
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The neck is Mexican, regardless of what the decal says. The body has many signs of being Mexican as well, but that one large hole (looks like maybe 1/4" diameter or slightly larger) above the control cavity between the bridge and middle pup is an oddity. And so is the even screw spacing on the trem cover.

But the routes and markings in the neck cavity appear Mexican all the way.

The pickups are obviously CS, and the pots and switch are nice vintage type quality cloth covered wires etc. I just don't know what to make of this one. The bridge looks also like Mexican "vintage" issue..the "Fender" stamp in the same direction on each side and lousy stamping..and the thin half block.

I want to say this is some kind of Mexican "special" edition mixed with a forged made in USA headstock decal...and possibly good electronics added..but I can not say for sure.

At this point I would shrug my shoulders...plug it in and play it. If it sounds and plays great just enjoy it. If not, part it out.

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