Tone diff in Alder vs. Ash vs. Mahogany vs. Laminated

nikininja · **Posted:** Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:46 pm

I'll take that challenge, if I can up the stakes and put 2 guitars in, instead of one. I can hear my guitars a mile off, not telling anyone how.

jromanov · **Posted:** Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:55 pm

Jay

With the utmost of respect intended, I would absolutely encourage novice players not to even consider the idea of selecting a solid body electric guitar based on a tone desired because of the "tonewood" used to build a guitar.

Even with an acoustic guitar, a novice player need not be concerned with the woods used in constructing a given model.

I don't think its at all arrogant, and one assessment of value is absolutely more important than another...especially to the novice player.

Again Jay...I apologize if my opinions are offensive in any way. I have been playing the guitar for almost 40 years, I have a very extensive collection, and in all honesty...other than Flame Maples, Bubingas, Quilt Maples and other Custom Finishes...what wood the guitar is made out of is simply not important.

Thanks

jromanov · **Posted:** Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:59 pm

Niki

You are...of coarse... not eligible to participate in any of our challenges! Although it is always a pleasure to hear from you. Hope you are well.

jromanov · **Posted:** Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:18 pm

Thank you Jay for the interesting conversation. Through the years many people have come to me, wanting to take up the guitar, and they ask me for advice on which guitar to buy. Also my son is a professional guitarist, Berklee College Of Music Graduate, and a virtuoso player. Not just because he's my son, he's one of those 1%ers that plays any style effortlessly. Totally fluent with the theory and operation of these wonderful instruments.

He has taught guitar at the American School of Music for the past 5 years, and students are constantly asking him which guitar they should buy.

The first question that we ask (unfortunately) is "what is your budget" how much are you intending to pay for this new guitar. The answer to this will always dictate what we suggest.

Now please... don't everyone freak out and start telling me about how great their Squires are....because they are not that great. As your budget increases so will the quality of the guitar you choose. Sad but true...when you win the lottery you won't be looking at Squires.

Tone woods, and guitar construction make for very interesting discussion, but have very little, if any effect on the guitar sound of a solid body electric.

Thanks again

Ceri · **Posted:** Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:52 pm

Anyway. Now that we've all assured each other how friendly our tone and intentions are (which can so easily get miscommunicated in this strange disembodied medium), any of those who think tonewood very important have thoughts about the question I asked on the previous page?

Ceri wrote:

If Fender's choice on body wood makes such a crucial difference why is it we get so, so many threads here with folks asking what timber their guitar is made from? Surely they can tell just by listening to it...?

That one's still perplexing me...

Cheers - C

nikininja · **Posted:** Wed Apr 28, 2010 4:08 pm

I'd have to say there is a difference. A recognisable difference between body woods. Why else would two guitars made of the same materials and components sound different? To what degree that affects the sound of most guitarists by the time they've run it through 99ft of ropey cable into a reverb soaked strip paint at 50 paces amp, I dunno. Not much I suppose.
I cant recognise one wood by sound alone, no matter how pure the signal is. I can hear a difference between 2 types side by side though.

jromanov · **Posted:** Wed Apr 28, 2010 4:30 pm

Ceri..."surely they can tell just by listening to it"...sarcasm from you is always so refreshing.

Niki...Even though I don't really know what "reverb soaked strip paint at 50 paces amp" means...I think I grasp your concept.

I'd like to share a new concept of my own for your edification.

My New Rig
Electric Guitar Plugged Directly Into An Amplifier

Different guitars and different amps as well...but nothing in the signal path anymore! An occasional wah pedal (rarely) It's the rig of the future. I encourage everyone to try this one time, and enjoy the sound that comes out of your "New" guitar. Clearing the signal path turns any colorized guitar back to "New" again

Cheers

PS Kinda changed the subject...sorry

Twelvebar · **Posted:** Wed Apr 28, 2010 4:45 pm

To say tonewood has no effect on sound is a huge overstatement. it has an effect, but it is subtle.(Neck wood makes more of a difference than body wood, IMHO too,) Personally I think electronics have a bigger effect. Choice of pickups, where the tone knobs are set, effects amplification etc. With electric guitars (solid body or hollow,) the primary part of the sound chain is the electronics. The dirtier your signal the less you hear of the naked guitar.

Even playing technique has more effect. Clapton sounds like Clapton no matter what he plays.

But I will say that it is extremely hard to differentiate between woods in the same range. I firmly believe you could find a poplar body and an alder body that sound more alike than 2 different poplar bodies, or 2 different ash bodies.

Wired up and electrified these differences become smaller and smaller, as the electronic signal shapes the sound.

Ceri · **Posted:** Wed Apr 28, 2010 4:59 pm

jromanov wrote:

Ceri..."surely they can tell just by listening to it"...sarcasm from you is always so refreshing.

Thank you!

However: I am deeply dismayed if it came across as sarcasm. It was meant with a roguish but friendly sparkle in the eye.

No wonder Jay thought I was getting irritable if it sounded truly sarcastic. I publicly and very sincerely apologise to him and anyone else if that is how it seemed: it honestly wasn't meant to be snotty in the slightest.

..."Refreshing" on the other hand: now that's always good!

(Man - so easy to get the tone wrong without realising. ...Which is kind of the theme of the thread, isn't it? :lol:

)

Cheers all - C

jromanov · **Posted:** Wed Apr 28, 2010 5:01 pm

12
Exactly

And I LOVE the "naked guitar" "Clapton sounds like Clapton"...Thank God

Clapton helped to inspire the rebirth of the "naked guitar" Although he has run through probably every "effect" available...He now pretty much just plugs the guitar into the amp. Way to go EC...Derrick Trucks...(a little) Eric Johnson...It's the wave of the future. What a pleasure to have my Naked Guitars back!

Thanks

Twelvebar · **Posted:** Wed Apr 28, 2010 5:06 pm

BigJay wrote:

Ceri wrote:

Anyway. Now that we've all assured each other how friendly our tone and intentions are (which can so easily get miscommunicated in this strange disembodied medium), any of those who think tonewood very important have thoughts about the question I asked on the previous page?

Ceri wrote:

If Fender's choice on body wood makes such a crucial difference why is it we get so, so many threads here with folks asking what timber their guitar is made from? Surely they can tell just by listening to it...?

That one's still perplexing me...

Cheers - C

OK. Here's the deal....

What you are doing with this statement, suggestion and question is insinuating a relationship between A) the many people who ask about tonewood, B) the fact that Fender typically uses alder, and C) the suggestion that they cant tell what type of wood it is as evidenced by the fact that they are asking the question in the first place.

Unfortunately, your progressions are not logical on at least two levels.

First, you cannot logically show a that we cant hear the tone differences between woods, based on the the fact that someone asks what type of wood their guitar is made of. You dont know they arent hearing a difference. You dont know they know how to tell the difference. They might have only one guitar or guitars made from only one tonewood. Thus, your assumption of a relationship between their question and our general inability to discern between tones and the wood it comes from is faulty.

Second, your statements/question do not address (at all) why Fender uses alder so frequently. Yet you insinuate, generally based on the false logic above, that Fenders frequent use of alder has nothing to do with its tonal qualities. First, the fact that people ask what type of wood their Strat is made from cannot demonstrate a relationship, or a lack therein, describing why Fender uses alder so frequently. The two statements are unrelated. Secondly, you have not addressed any other possibilities why Fender uses alder more than any other tonewood. Again, according to Eldred, Fender uses alder because of its density and the fact that alder is very consistently dense. I believe you'd agree that there are significantly less expensive woods, much more other composite materials, than alder.

Thus, you insinuate a conclusion to a question based on a prior insinuation of a potential relationship between two facts. But you have not demonstrated any type of relationship between the two facts and, therefore, you cannot get to your conclusion. Your implied relationships are circumstantial and dont show any causal relationships upon which to make a conclusion.

Jay I would suggest that fender uses alder more than say , ash, at least in part due to ease of procurement, and price.

cherokee747 · **Posted:** Wed Apr 28, 2010 5:14 pm

As you can see Alder is more than Ash http://www.willardbrothers.net/ORDER%20FORM.htm I'm an old cabinetmaker from way back..........

Mike

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