Your absolutely correct, the only solution is to change our shopping habits. As you likely know politics are very 2nd place in the running of any country, circulation of money is no1. We cant go invading these countries demanding they treat their workforce better. The only option is to make your indignation known about sweatshops (we even have em here, quite illegaly) and back it up with your coin. The employees of such places will suffer as a result, the poor always do. No wonder half the world wants us dead, its nothing more than corporate slavery.

_________________
No no and no

Well said......what I try to do.......I travel a lot and it use to be people loved Americans, to a large degree. Then the tide changed....

_________________
Xhefri's Guitars
www.xhefriguitars.com

It's not just Americans mate, it's pretty much all the western world. The Bask movement seems to have become a figurehead of every anarchist sect in europe. The 2001 Genoa riots were orchestrated by a group closely tied with ETA. All over their displeasure at George Bush visiting the city. Ideals get clouded when groups like that become intertwined. I'm quite glad I have no knowledge of similar things happening in the east. The thought of oriental radicals (thankfully there are very very few groups) operating with islamic extremists fills me with utter dread.

All we as regular people can hope is that anyone wanting some kind of revenge can differentiate between joe public and immoral corporate boss's. The fact that most of the company's using sweatshop/child labour abroad, are based firmly in the west. Thats where the lever point is, put constant pressure on the likes of Nike and Levi's to improve conditions for such people. If you insist that they stop employing them your only causing more poverty and potentialy fuelling more hatred. It's their greedy vast profit margins that are the problem, how much does a £100 pair of Nike's cost to knock up? £5 maybe?

Which ofcourse makes me incredibly proud of the likes of Fender and Marshall who do use far eastern foreign labour, but provide decent conditions and pay.
I was looking at a old guitar mag last week rereading a story about Trev Wilkinson's Vintage brands far eastern productionlines. The whole problem with guitar manufacture out there is that they dont actually understand how the things work. He was saying you pretty much have to redesign the factory floor to alter one thing about the design.

_________________
No no and no

I was reading that China is now demanding that foreign companies doing business there are going to have to make there patents available to Chinese companies in order to continue doing business in China. They feel that they are coming out of the financial crisis better the others and the U.S is mired in it yet with no end in site so they can take advantage of foreign companies desire to be in the market there.
Where is Obama? He has no influence over any of these foreign countries. China, Iran, Korea, and others just put his sanctions and threats under the carpet and laugh.

_________________
The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.

Thomas Jefferson

Just voicing my opinion on the use of the "Fender" brand name.

A Strat knock off from China, a Strat knock off from Korea, or a Strat knock off from Mexico it's all the same.

Instruments made in the USA should be branded Fender, instruments made outside the USA should be branded as something else.

Regardless of their quality and merits, if the instruments from the FMIC MIM factory said anyting other than "Fender" on the headstock, most of you MIM guys wouldn't have looked at them. You want the Fender name and reputation without paying the Fender price.

FMIC has even moved the "Made in Mexico" sticker to the back of the headstock to further the illusion that it's a proper Fender instrument.

Great guitars, "bull stuff" marketing ploy.

_________________
"Life is like eating jalapenos. What you do today may burn your arse tomorrow"

_________________
You're only as strong as
the drinks you pour,
the tables you dance on,
and the friends you roll with.

My view is that the MIA strats are the high end models of the line, but that's not to say that you can't turn your MIM strat into one that's every bit as good by upgrading some of the components that matter most (strings, pickups, etc.), though it'll never be the 'same-as' the MIA model, or vice-versa. In terms of sound quality, I can make my MIM strat sound practically 'just like' anybody's strat guitar I want using my BOSS GT-10. Finally, if there weren't low to mid price range FENDER products made (here or in these other countries) I wonder then how would Fender brand loyalty be established, which I hear accounts for a lot of return business? Even Gibson have started experimenting with 'faded/satin' series LP Studio and SG guitars, at almost half the price of a gloss model, (I'm guessing) to help establish a new following of Gibson guitar players.

I really gotta agree with Martian here. If a tech says he's "open to the public" and "services guitars", then it's wrong for said person to refuse service based simply on his "pet peeve".

The way I see it is that if a person were to bring a "fake Gibson" to an authorized Gibson repair shop for something like warranty service, then sure...they can refuse that service and that does make sense, but that's not what we're talking about. When a tech refuses something like a setup however just because the guitar is "a fake", I'm sorry but to me that's just wrong. I'm sure that a great many of us started out playing guitar on "cheap clones"...I -still- have my old Memphis Les Paul copy. So what's the difference? The logo on the headstock? IT'S A GUITAR! If the customer is willing to pay you $20 (or whatever your going rate is) for a setup, then set the guitar up...simple as that.

Now I will say that if a tech spots a fake, he/she should at least mention that to the customer... "hey...you know this isn't a real Strat, right?". I do think it's good for a tech to be up front with the customers. But to completely refuse a customer service simply based on the guitar being a fake is just wrong...and as a small business owner myself, it's really bad business to boot. If you refuse a customer service based on something like that, you're telling that customer "I don't want your business...ever" so in 5 or 10 years when that customer has a real Strat or Les Paul, they're simply not going to have -any- desire to come back to you. People who don't want customers shouldn't go in to a service business.


So I'm sorry if this hurts anyone else's feelings but +1 for Martian there.




Well first and foremost in the case of Fender's...or at least Strats, if I'm not terribly mistaken, the US Supreme Court has said "it's ok to clone" when they denied Fender their Trademark appeal. Ya see here's the thing...people act like this whole cloning and fake thing is something new...it isn't. In Fender's case there have been cheap Strat knock-offs since before the early 70's. When they were just "cheap knock-offs", Fender didn't really seem to care. However when countries such as Japan started putting out instruments that were as good, if not better than, "real" Strats, then Fender started to take issues with it. Regardless, in this day and age, to most non musicians the shape of a Strat (and a Les Paul as well) isn't so much associated with "Fender" as much as it simply is with "rock and roll". So yea...for the most part unless said person is actually using the Fender name (which yes, certainly does happen) just making clones in and of itself isn't illegal at all.

More over...and this is certainly subjective but...I tend to think that the sale of those cheap knock-off's has actually been -good- for Fender over the years. Fender didn't always make a decent "entry level" instrument like they do with the Squier line today. I know there was a time in my own life where I never could have afford a "real" Fender but I could afford one of those cheap clones (again, I have a Memphis LP and I do now have an old Lotus Strat clone as well). They got a lot of people playing who never would have been able to afford a "good" guitar if they had to stick with a brand name. Then later as they skills develop and hopefully have a bit more money, then they go out and buy the real McCoy...in my case it was around 10 years before I finally bought a real Fender.

Further, while these products are often "second rate", certainly not always as you suggest. There have in fact been some rather remarkable "knock-off's" over the years. When it comes to Strats for example, Tokai and Schecter certainly come to mind...very good quality instruments despite being knock-offs. Then of course there's the infamous Paul Reed Smith...I'm sorry but you can NOT look at a PRS and not see the "Gibson influence" there! LOL!!! Of course anyone who's ever played a PRS can tell you they are most certainly VERY good instruments to say the least! Nothing second rate about those at all (including the price!).

Also on a very personal note I do have to say that I've built a couple of "Partscasters" in my day (with plans for 3 more currently on the table)...guitars that could certainly be considered as "clones" or "knock offs" with one that is most certainly "a fake" and I am in fact very proud of my work. Further, in doing so I have learned -A LOT- about guitars...it has given me a great deal of knowledge as to how and why an electric guitar works the way it does and if anything I think I'm also a better player because of it.

Lastly in regards to your analogy about the Van Gogh, Piccaso and Ferrari clones...well...honestly one of my local auto parts stores has a print of Van Gogh's "The Starry Night" hanging right behind their parts counter! LOL!!! Is this an exact "reproduction" that someone is trying to pass off as an original Van Gogh? No...of course not...it's a print. I find your analogy flawed simply because you're not distinguishing between "a copy" and "intentional fraud"...and there is a -very- real and rather sizable difference. Certainly this does apply to guitar's as well...if someone builds a "fake" Strat and is trying to pass it off as legit, then yes...-that- is fraud. However what about companies such as Johnson, Lotus, Cort, Memphis, Kramer, Epiphone and -MANY- other's who build a "strat-like guitar" with their own logo on it? Those companies are NOT claiming their guitar's are "Fender Strats", they're simply copies...and everyone knows this. In other words, if I chose to buy a poster sized print of The Starry Night and frame it and put it up in my living room because I may happen to like it without some how needing to possess the original...which would be -WAY- out of my budget even if it were available...I'm sorry but I really can't see anything wrong with that at all. Respectively, if someone want's to buy a cheap Strat knock-off and knows what they are buying -and- it get's them playing guitar, I'm sorry but I can't see anything wrong with this at all.

Imitation is often one of the finest forms of flattery .

As always, just my own personal opinions.
Jim

The fundamental issue with trade and manufacturing in China is that they have this (USA) country by the gonads. Currently, every business day the United States is borrowing roughly one billion dollars from other countries--our current best friend being China. China owns the majority of America's debt in the form of loans, t-bills, bonds, etc. It is more our government's fault than it is China's that has caused us to be in this predicament. Our government has been overspending for decades and this current "War on Terror" isn't helping. The modern American lifestyle has created a money vacuum which is swallowing up the wealth of our grand children to come. We created the market and China, as well as other Southeast Asian countries, have merely come to supply it because we demand a bargain. We want top quality at the bottom dollar.

The other side of the coin is that not every person that get's an electric guitar is automatically going to be the next Hendrix or Slash. If the average parent of a high school age child hears "I want a Les Paul for Christmas" from their child, I honestly doubt that they will care where it's made. All they'll care about is getting the cheapest guitar that say's "Les Paul" until they know for sure their child will stick with it. We made the market and it is irresponsible to blame it on China. If everybody cared enough to buy American then China would have no market. But that's never going to happen because we want everything for nothing.

_________________
"If I don't see you no more in this world I'll meet you on the next one and don't be late... don't be late." -Jimi Hendrix

Ya hit the nail on the head manabu108.......

_________________
Xhefri's Guitars
www.xhefriguitars.com

The guy is a certified Gibson tech. There is a huge difference between a copy and a counterfeit, and its not productive to group them together for this argument. I find it troubling that so many find it acceptable to bring a counterfeit Gibson to a Gibson tech and expect service. It seems about as tacky as bringing a cooler to church.

http://www.tradetang.com/for-sale/Fender-American-Standard-Stratocaster-Guitar-Light-Green-Free-Shipping-ZDAO-ZDAW/104999-1625441.html

Go to bottom of page and read "About us"

Usually one tell tale sign of the cost savings on the guitar is the figured top laminate. You can spot a budget thin laminate a mile away. They are not deep and don't have a nice 3D appeal to the figuring. (if it's flame or quilt) Now that goes just for figured top guitars. Obviously solid color tops don't equate much in comparison.

This would hold true for most many budget figured tops from any country for that matter. Doesn't make them bad, just not as pretty as a 10 top for instance. IMHO

Did you see the tuners on this guitar? (6th pict down). Crooked.... it is really wrong to counterfeit guitars, money, purses, watches...they are like parasites making their living off the reputation of quality merchandise that have earned the right to be who they are. Then these people steal their right and profit off of it....

Like I mentioned earlier i this thread: it would good to watch about this subject is this DVD entitled: Illicit: The Dark Trade which is a documentary on what is going on in China and how out of control it is. I frankly would not support it when I know it hurts everybody all for the sake of "well, I can't afford a real Gibson or a Fender so this was a good option..." mentality. Go buy a Squire or a Faded Les Paul...

_________________
Xhefri's Guitars
www.xhefriguitars.com

This is interesting, perhaps the next 10-15 yrs will see more chinese/korean models introduced and moved from Japan- perhaps that the signs of it are happening now- when you look at guitars, both the special and the Hway1 are marketed as both low cost good value instruments. Way back when I was knee high to a grasshopper- a lot of quality consumables were made in europe/states or in our own backyard in NZ or Aussie, and the latter made in the east. Car manufacturers GM and Ford in AU are turning to china to cut costs, it makes me wonder if the same will be said for all brands of mass produced guitars in USA, UK or any country that pays their skilled workers a decent wage.

The shere speed of chinas massive economic growth, the growing quality of the products and consumables- they are fast becoming an economic super-power on many different levels, if not already.

the question is if a western manufacturing company- any company infact doesnt want to follow those steps- then what changes would have to be made?

This leads me to something thats had my mind stirring, throughout the decades since the strat was invented- it seems every decade has its own influence as to what was being made- with regard to colours and enhancements etc... on fender guitars, also economics had a role to play. In our day in age- what is it exactly that influences the styles and design of fender guitars today? is it based on 'value for money' vs off-shore cost-cutting?

_________________