Hi, I'm new to this forum. I signed in to ask a question ro two about the LSR roller nut. A few details about the guitar...

This is a '95 American Roadhouse Strat with rosewood fretboard. I've had the nut replaced once, with a graphtech trem nut. Nothing but trouble with this ever since, and I think the guys that did the job basically blew it. I won't go into all that, except to say that intonation, sustain and tuning stability were even worse than the stock nut, even after a couple trips back to have them fix it. Never go to an acoustic luthier to do work on an electric...I just don't think they grokked it at all.

I'm considering replacing with the LSR. I would like to hear from someone who has done this job, as to the effect on tone compared to a traditional nut...brighter? darker? no effect?

I'm also wondering about the bed of the nut slot...can anyone tell me if this 1995 Roadhouse has a radiused bed to the slot? I would think that the LSR is flat bottom, so that could be a deal-breaker. I'd prefer not to remove the nut just to see, as I gig regularly with the guitar and can't afford to have it on the blocks, unless its for a very worthy cause...it would be prohibitive if I had to flatten the bed of the slot just to install the LSR.

Thanks

Welcome, Max!

Strictly acoustic and Classical luthiers do indeed have their limitations when it comes to cutting and installing electric guitar type nuts, especially the Fender type nuts. So, I'd write this one off as the nut you presently have has to be taken to somewhere else who is more familiar with the Fender type nuts and have it redone properly. Surely, a properly cut nut regardless of its base material should give one no trouble at all.

Yes, the nut slot on the Road House has a radius; yes, the LSR nut has a flat bottom.

The LSR nut makes the action stiffer and higher. As to tone and sustain, unless all you play is open notes, these aspects are virtually irrelevant. What is most relevant is the fact that the nut slot area will have to be cut and reshaped (and this is permanent, of course) to accommodate the LSR. More over, the LSR's bearings start to mash down over time, becoming elliptical which in turn impedes and ultimately stymies their function, thus creating a whole other set of problems in addition to the ones you are experiencing with your current nut.

These LSR nuts like so many other devices are merely gimmicks. As I often say, guitars and related instruments from 'day one' throughout the centuries right up to this typing have traditional nuts. Consider: If such, "revolutionary inventions" as LSR nuts, etc, etc. were indeed a boon to stringed instruments at large, they would have been OEM on ALL stringed instruments many, many, many years ago.

Instead of digging the hole deeper, begin climbing out of it.

Again, your best bet is to take your guitar to a COMPETENT tech who deals with issues such as your's daily and have him or her redo it properly, once and for all.

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You dig?

I have to completely agree with Martian here. I'm one of those really foolish people who installed an LSR on my '96 MIM and I gotta tell you, if I had it to do over again, I simply would NOT do it. As Martian already said, first and foremost you have to shave some wood off the neck for the installation...and this is a non-reversible procedure...once you install an LSR, there's no real going back short of buying a new neck (ok...that's not completely true if you really know your woodworking, but you get the jist). Also, while I will say that it didn't really hurt anything, I really don't think it made any significant improvement in regards to the tuning stability or anything....it really just wasn't that big a deal considering what one has to go through for the installation.

As far as tone goes...no, I don't think it really changed the tone or sound of the guitar at all. Quite honestly, changing the pickups and the trem block did make huge differences in the quality of the tone, but the nut...very negligible to say the least.

I also have to agree with Martian in that it sounds like the graphite nut you got there was simply a bad installation. Something I've said many times over these forums is that you should never "assume" that just because a person is a so-called guitar tech (or luthier in this case) that said person actually knows what they're doing...a great many of them don't. To me it sounds like whoever the guy was, he just order the new nut and assumed it would fit right out of the package. Depending on your string gauge and even your playing style, the nut probably needed a bit of filing done...new nut installations usually do. Even an acoustic luthier should have known this but since I don't know the guy or his level of expertise, it's really hard to be objective there. On the other hand, one also has to wonder -if- the acoustic guy bothered to do a setup on the guitar after installing the new nut...or if he even knew how?

Now I will say that ever since my experience with the LSR roller nut, I've never bothered to mess with the nuts on my guitar. If it's got plastic, I just leave it that way...I know some folks will disagree with this but a decent plastic nut works just as well as bone, graphite or anything else. Accept for my Seagull which has a bone nut, most of my guitars all have plastic nuts and it's never been any kind of problem.

Also, I would ask here...why did you replace the nut to begin with and why did you go with a graphtech? Was there a specific problem with the old nut or were you just looking to "upgrade" for the sake of upgrading? The reason I ask this is that a lot of people will change the nut to something like graphite because of tuning problems or something...and very often the nut (assuming that it's been properly cut) doesn't really have much to do with that...at least not nearly as much as a proper setup. It's been my experience that the key to good tuning stability on a Strat is simply a really good setup (which an acoustic luthier probably wouldn't be able to do). Seriously...I'd take the guitar to someone who -knows- electrics and particularly Strats and maybe just even get a stock nut put back on.

Either way...and this is, as always, just my own personal opinion here but I would NOT put an LSR on...they're really just not worth the trouble. I would honestly go with a plain ol' plastic nut before I ever put another LSR on a guitar.


Again just my $.02,
Peace,
Jim

Hello!

I've just finished installing the LSR roller nut on my latest Partscaster (I can't afford a real fender just yet!). I like it...alot! With locking tuners i've found it to be very stable and allows for some serious Jeff Beck style wammy action which i've struggled to achive with my other guitars. It hasn't had a noticeable effect on tone to my ears (IMO)

For more info on LSR installation check the following link:

http://www.electric-guitar-info.com/roller-nut.html.

If heavy trem action is not your thing then, as Martian and Jim say, a decent tech will sort you out with a decent setup (its worth every penny). I agree with Jim the nut might not be the issue. If your like me and like to have a go try following the fender setup guide.

http://www.fender.com/support/stratocas ... _guide.php

I've spent a a considerable amout of time perfecting the set up on my strats and once i'd craked it the sonic benifts are amazing. I've got 7 electric guitars so being able to maintain/service them myself is very handy and I have enjoyed every part of the learning process, i feel its made me a better player for it

Hope this helps. (50 points for excellent use of the word "grokked" by the way!)

Andy

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EFI in a '69 Z28.

LSR on a Strat.

Different debate, same kinds of arguments.

I've never done an LSR conversion so I can't speak to that point but I have had several guitars factory equipped with LSR's. My number one guitar, the one I play 80% of the time has an LSR nut. The guitar is now 12 years old, has been strung with 10's since day one and I'm considering taking it in for it's 2nd refret job so it's safe to say it has seen some significant use. The LSR nut does not make the action feel any different than any other Fender I own or have owned. The balls have not squashed down. They are not elliptical. They are still round and roll freely. The nut still works, keeps the guitar in tune better than my non LSR equipped guitars and is definitely not a gimmick.

I fully realize Martian is one of the most respected people on here but consider the following.

I am also into muscle cars and the EFI debate reminds me so much of this discussion. Old seasoned pros with 30 years of experience and far more credibility than I will ever have swear up and down EFI doesn't work as well as a carb in older American iron running pushrod engines. My sleeper Cutlass with a 406 SBC and F.A.S.T. EFI begs to differ. It's a wild scary romper with a lumpy but dead steady idle that never misses a beat, never bogs, never hesitates, never floods and never fails to put a mile wide grin on the face of any passenger I carry.

Do I still have respect for Martian? Of course I do.
Do I agree with him on this point? Nope.

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Just think of how awesome a guitar player you could have been by now if you had only spent the last 10 years practicing instead of obsessing over pickups and roasted maple necks.

For the sake of this debate I should probably add that I don't really think there's anything wrong with LSR nuts...it's not like I wouldn't buy a guitar just because it had an LSR (assuming I otherwise liked the instrument). My comments are that I simply would never go out of my way again to install one on a neck that wasn't already set up for one. On an otherwise properly setup guitar, personally I just don't think they really make that much of a difference at all compared with a properly cut nut of more traditional materials.

As far as tuning stability goes, actually the most stable Strat I own is my "International Strat" (a Partscaster) that I built earlier last year. I honestly can't say what I did right on that guitar but it simply just doesn't go out of tune unless I start doing really heavy dive bombs or something...and even there she's more stable than most other Strats I've ever owned or played. In this particular case, the body is alder (of unknown origin...some kind of import I believe), the neck is from an '04 Indonesian Squier Standard, the bridge is from a newer MIM (full size trem block but still zinc alloy), 4 springs on the trem, etc. The tuners and the plastic nut are stock from the Squier...never changed any of that (only removed them when I changed the headstock logo after which I put the same parts back on again). This one doesn't even have the roller T's I usually put on my Strats...just the stock string T's. Seriously...I don't know if it's something to do with the specific combination of parts here or something that I may have maybe done differently while setting her up (and if so, what it was so I could do it all the time!) or what, but she really is one of the most stable Strats I've ever played. That's not to say my others are "bad" by any stretch of the imagination...I'd have to say that my '96 MIM (again with the LSR), my '85 Squier and my '08 Squier are all pretty typical as far as Strats go in regards to tuning stability...once they get "warmed up" they are all pretty solid...but my Int. Strat is noticeably more stable...just really rock solid as far as Strats and most other guitars go.

Now with that said, the single most stable guitar that I own is actually my old Kramer. I stripped the crappy old Floyd Rose off that thing years ago and replaced it with a Kahler and that guitar almost never goes out of tune! I've actually gone for a couple of weeks with that guitar where I simply haven't had to touch the tuning on her...I've pulled some of the Steve Vai bits where I've just hung the guitar from the trem bar and "bounced" and she comes right back in tune! Locking trems really are a wonderful thing

BTW...in regards to setups and such...right now I have somewhere around 25 guitars (give or take the 5 projects I also have on the table) so for me, doing my own setups and even my own "repairs" is an absolute -must-...I just can't imagine paying someone else to work on that many guitars for me. That said, I think that being able to do your own setups is really a plus for most people...it gives you a much better understanding of how and why your guitar works and sounds the way it does. I -know- there are people out there who are perfectly content with one decent guitar and never change a thing on it accept strings who are also quite happy to pay others to change those strings and do setups for them but personally, I'm a "hands on" kind of guy and to me, working on my guitars is nearly as enjoyable as playing them...and I too think it's made me a better player for the effort.

Again though in regards to LSR's...if I were looking at/considering a Strat, I wouldn't reject it based soley on whether it had an LSR...but it's not a selling point for me either (and I'd certainly never pay extra for it!) and I'd never go out of my way to install one again. For the money of the nut itself ($45 last time I looked) along with the virtually irreversible modification needed on the neck, they really just aren't that big of a deal in my always and ever so humble opinion. Again a proper setup will probably do more for you in any case.

Peace,
Jim

Thanks for the thoughtful replies; everyone here has a valid point.

I'm not going to do the LSR...mainly because of the modifications to the nut slot...making it wider is one matter, but having to also flatten the bed just put it out of the running. The reason this looked like a good option is simple...Jeff Beck uses one, and he uses the tremolo more often and more creatively than any other player, bar none. Just watch "Live at Ronnie Scott's" sometime if you haven't already...a real treat, and a primer in trem technique (for all the good it'll do us).

As I said, these were acoustic guitar guys that did the job with the graphtech nut, but not just any acoustic guys...this was done in Frank Ford's shop at Gryphon Stringed Instruments in Palo Alto, CA. Ford is one of the top guys in the nation, if not the world...on acoustics. They've also done refret jobs for me on my acoustics and they really do nice work...just not on my strat. Unfortunately I'm no longer in that area and can't really demand satisfaction...plus I waited too long.

The problem seems to be in the way the slots were cut; they don't seem to be at the right sloping angle, nor sufficiently polished. I went with the trem nut hoping for an improvement in tuning stability with trem use...I don't necessarily do a lot of dive bombing and such, but I like to know that if I do, it will snap back to pitch. As it is, the low E snaps back sharp every time, which is a common problem with strats due to the angle the string takes from the slot to the post. The other annoying thing is that the high E is relatively dead when sounded open...it's being stopped somehow at the nut. Also, I have the damnedest time getting the intonation set right with this nut...wasn't a problem before.

I think I'm going to give up on this graphtech nut and just put the old original one back in. It was more stable than this one has ever been.

BTW, I have another neck that I'm considering for this guitar, or possibly for a new build...a Mighty Mite with some decent birdseye and an ebony board. It has a flat bed to the nut slot and I've stripped the factory poly-whatever finish and done a nice nitrocellulose quasi french-polish. My only question here would be...is the top radius the same on all these LSRs? Does anyone know what the radius is? The reason I ask is that the Mighty Mite has a compound radius of 9" at the nut to 14" at the heel and I'd like to match this as closely as possible.

Thanks again for the well-considered replies.

Hello,

I installed my LSR on a Stewmac (mighty-mite) compound radius fretboard (9.5" at the nut - 12" at the 22 fret) and i have no complaints. Everything works just as i like it. Nice neck (IMO).

I saw Jeff Beck live on his 65th birthday in June 2009. Same band line up as the Ronnie Scotts gigs. Possibly the best gig i've ever been to. I had great seats and saw everything. It was a master class in guitar control! Seeing him play "Where Were You" live was, quite frankly amazing.

He was playing a White Strat BUT.....It was not fitted with the LSR! I believe it had a larger Wilkinson Roller nut that was featured on earlier Beck artist models. I saw him check the tunning several times BUT...he never once touched the machineheads/tunners! He has the most stable strat .......ever!?! Or maybe he uses "the force" to keep his guitar in tune!

His current artist strat does have the LSR and if hes willing to put his name on it then its good enough for me!

Good luck with your nut! Hope this helps

Enjoy

Andy

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