Setup Question, Fingerboard height

roadhousefan · **Joined:** Sat Jan 30, 2010 12:33 am **Posts:** 22

When I bought my Strat Roadhouse one of the salesmen at the Guitar Center said that it was a good idea to shim the neck so that the fingerboard would sit flush with the bridge and no screws would stick out of the saddles... or course, he was a luthier and he offered to do that as part of a complete setup. I told him I'd think about it... has anyone heart about this? Is there any real advantage to doing this? Disadvantanges? Though I'm going to get him to set it up anyway, I'm apprehensive about letting shim the neck (he said basically stick a business card-sized piece of plastic between the neck and the body to raise the neck a little). It just seems like that would cause the guitar to lose some sustain. Any ideas??

Shockwarrior · **Joined:** Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:02 am **Posts:** 488

roadhousefan wrote:

one of the salesmen...he was a luthier

Was he a salesmen a setup tech or a luthier? A luthier builds stringed instruments - was he building any there? Most (not all) salesmen are neither and from my experience they give poor advice.

Quote:

Is there any real advantage to doing this? Disadvantanges?

It is the biggest waste of time I have ever heard. On a new guitar you shouldn't need to shim anything. All shimming is for is if you cannot set the string height correctly.

If you want smaller screws just buy some smaller ones or some replacements and trim them to height. You don't adjust the whole guitar because they hang out a bit.

Quote:

Though I'm going to get him to set it up anyway

Setup should be free and included as part of the purchase. In other words the guitar should be playing optimally when sold.

roadhousefan · **Joined:** Sat Jan 30, 2010 12:33 am **Posts:** 22

Quote:

It is the biggest waste of time I have ever heard. On a new guitar you shouldn't need to shim anything. All shimming is for is if you cannot set the string height correctly.

Agreed. It doesn't sounds like something I'd want done anyways, considering the screws stick out less than half a millimeter on my saddles. Other than perhaps feel I couldn't think of a good reason to have it done. I was curious to know if there was something beyond my level of comprehension on why this should be done. On the other hand, I was suspicious that he was trying to hustle me out of $30.

Quote:

Was he a salesmen a setup tech or a luthier? A luthier builds stringed instruments - was he building any there? Most (not all) salesmen are neither and from my experience they give poor advice.

I suppose he was a guitar tech, and while they did the intonation when I bought it, I wanted the truss rod adjusted, which they said they wouldn't do. Would it be unreasonable to ask to have it adjusted as part of the purchase? I bought it last thursday, so I suppose I could still take it back.

Shockwarrior · **Joined:** Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:02 am **Posts:** 488

Quote:

I suppose he was a guitar tech, and while they did the intonation when I bought it, I wanted the truss rod adjusted, which they said they wouldn't do. Would it be unreasonable to ask to have it adjusted as part of the purchase? I bought it last thursday, so I suppose I could still take it back.

If he didn't want to do it perhaps he was truss rod scared?

Adjusting the intonation before the truss rod is adjusted is actually pretty stupid if the truss rod needs adjusting in the first place that is.

You can do it yourself. You need three tools:
Feeler gauge that starts at about 0.002" up to 0.020"
6" steel rule in 64th's
The Hex or Allen wrench the fits the truss rod (normally comes with guitar)

The feeler gauge and rule will set you back $5 each on eBay or you can pick up these from a hardware or automotive shop.

Instructions on how to setup a guitar are on the Fender website:
http://www.fender.com/support/stratocas ... _guide.php

It's something I wouldn't personally take a guitar back over.
You would think every guitar you buy should be playing great out of the box. Or if it wasn't the guitar store would have significant skill to do a setup before giving to you.

Its not always the case so - if you don't like the idea of learning and setting it up to your standards (you stand to save a lot of money) then look for a proper setup tech or luthier if you want it done well.

roadhousefan · **Joined:** Sat Jan 30, 2010 12:33 am **Posts:** 22

Quote:

if you don't like the idea of learning and setting it up to your standards (you stand to save a lot of money) then look for a proper setup tech or luthier if you want it done well.

I'd enjoy doing it myself actually. I'm apprehensive of doing it because this is my first big money (for me anyways) guitar purchase. Certainly for the money I'd pay for a single setup I could buy the supplies to set it up myself. A concern I had with the truss rod as far as action goes was that I just moved from the stock .09s to .10s... I went ahead and adjusted the claw so the bridge would sit flush, but the action seems to be a little higher in the upper frets than it was before. If I lower the saddles I get a little buzz in the open strings, especially the G string. I presume a truss rod correction would alleviate the problem, and I suppose I have to learn sometime!

Shockwarrior · **Joined:** Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:02 am **Posts:** 488

roadhousefan wrote:

If I lower the saddles I get a little buzz in the open strings, especially the G string. I presume a truss rod correction would alleviate the problem, and I suppose I have to learn sometime!

The truss rod will reduce buzz on the upper frets and middle buzz on aggressive string picking if the action is low. Or if you have backbow it can correct that by pulling it forward. Get those tools if your keen to give it a go.

Lower buzz is normally action height.

You cannot ruin anything if you obey three simple truss rod rules. Measure the before and after effects, know which way to adjust, adjust it in small increments.

Go get some tools if you want to try or ask around for a setup tech.

nikininja · **Posted:** Tue Feb 02, 2010 4:05 am

roadhousefan wrote:

I get a little buzz in the open strings, especially the G string. I presume a truss rod correction would alleviate the problem, and I suppose I have to learn sometime!

Dont use the truss rod to correct string buzz issues, end of story. Thats not what its designed for. Simply use the truss rod to address neck bow issues, thats its prime function and the only thing you should consider when adjusting it. Set the neck bow where it should be (around .010" - .013"between the top of the 8th fret and the underside of any string) String height should only be adjusted from the saddle or nut slot. Besides which truss rods only really affect the first four frets end of the neck, thats where all the movement they provide is. Trust me, I've just fitted one on a neck I'm building and have had to learn exactly how they work. Simple physics dictate that they cant affect upper end neck line as that ends bolted to the guitar body. The nature of anything operating under any form of tension is to act on the area of least resistance first. In this case the lower fret end of the neck.

Theres absolutely no need to shim the neck unless the plane of the neck is off. Any luthier or half decent tech wouldnt attempt to raise the floor of the neck needlessly. Theres no reason it cant be done, though I'd suspect anyone offering that service who's first choice wasnt a nice bit of timber. Particularly where your re-flooring the whole neckpocket and not shimming to adjust neck plane. I expect he's just touting for work.

Shockwarrior · **Joined:** Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:02 am **Posts:** 488

nikininja wrote:

Dont use the truss rod to correct string buzz issues, end of story. That's not what its designed for. Simply use the truss rod to address neck bow issues, thats its prime function and the only thing you should consider when adjusting it. Set the neck bow where it should be (around .010" - .013"between the top of the 8th fret and the underside of any string) String height should only be adjusted from the saddle or nut slot.

So having a slight bit of relief in the neck (via the truss rod) so you can have a lower action and as little buzz as possible on the first frets is wrong?

As far as I was aware there is only one real nut slot height. That is as high as it takes to clear the first fret without buzzing/muting out. So you think the string height should be adjusted from there as well?

I also thought when you adjust the truss rod and create relief you are also adjusting the string height and then must adjust the bridge intonation and saddle height to compensate if required.

If the 'plain' of my neck is out by 1 degree do I need to shim it? At how many degrees before it requires shimming?

nikininja · **Posted:** Tue Feb 02, 2010 7:57 pm

Shockwarrior wrote:

nikininja wrote:

Dont use the truss rod to correct string buzz issues, end of story. That's not what its designed for. Simply use the truss rod to address neck bow issues, thats its prime function and the only thing you should consider when adjusting it. Set the neck bow where it should be (around .010" - .013"between the top of the 8th fret and the underside of any string) String height should only be adjusted from the saddle or nut slot.

Shockwarrior wrote:

So having a slight bit of relief in the neck (via the truss rod) so you can have a lower action and as little buzz as possible on the first frets is wrong?

Yes and no I set relief to whatever is required then adjust action from the saddle.

Shockwarrior wrote:

As far as I was aware there is only one real nut slot height. That is as high as it takes to clear the first fret without buzzing/muting out. So you think the string height should be adjusted from there as well?.

Well yes, your nut slot depth is generally set from the top of the first fret. You can eye it up by depressing whatever fret you choose (as a check I fret the 3rd) and sighting the gap between the top of the 1st fret and underside of the string. Thats ok as a check, I tend to run a very straight edge across the top of the 2nd fret onto a feeler gauge blade ontop of the first fret to get my slots to their rough height. I usually go around .013 to .020" as I get towards bass strings at that point then really hone the depth with a welding tip cleaner to smooth the slot. Not an ideal tool I know I can take as much as .004" on the high E but it works for me. The break angle is already set by the file as long as your not too hard you'll get a nice smooth slot that rarely requires lubing. A real boon when all you can cut your High E with is a slot saw. E and A strings I tend to take to .020" then hone again. The average is around .010/.008" for the E and B, .012/.013" on the G, .014/15 on the D and around .018" on the E and A.

Shockwarrior wrote:

I also thought when you adjust the truss rod and create relief you are also adjusting the string height and then must adjust the bridge intonation and saddle height to compensate if required.

No thats an aside benefit of truss adjustments its not the rods primary role. It's primary role is to maintain a good overall neck shape. The two things interact but the truss should always be adjusted prior to the action being set. Ok you have to consider the playability of the neck and the player when you do it. But again you've got a few thou play either way of the recommended measurement. I pretty much weigh up what I've got to work with by judging the player of the guitar. Whackers get around .013", light shredders get anywhere down to .008". I consider how the strings are going to be vibrating along the fret tops and go from their. Primarily I'm aiming to maintain a decent bow and amend any discrepancies that may be occurring before they become a real problem. If they want lower they have to pay for fretwork. Then I'll lower the pickups right down and set the action at the saddle, then set pickup height. It's true that allowing bow does essentially alter the pitch of the headstock. You shouldn't set neck bow by a problem caused by low nut slots though. It's just not good practice. In that instance I'd rather shim the nut if I didn't have a bit of bone to hand and it was a dire emergency. Like I had to have the thing up and running within the hour.

Shockwarrior wrote:

If the 'plain' of my neck is out by 1 degree do I need to shim it? At how many degrees before it requires shimming?

I'd say that largely depends on the length of the neck. A degree across something the size of a mandolin is nothing In truth. Something the size of a double bass and your likely running into problems. I've never measured the plane of a strat by degrees. I always presumed with a straight neck it would be around 180 degrees :lol:

. Plenty of other manufacturers incline the neck back. Their predominantly set necked guitars. Shimming's not really a option with em.
Personally I aim for as near parallel to the face of the body as possible. Basically I measure work surface to the flat of the heel and work surface the underside of the neck (you need to shim the rear of the body to allow for the neck plate). A raise at the headstock end of around a 32nd is ok any more than that, I shim to take that out and bring it back to parallel. I don't tolerate any kind of minus measurement on it. To get the guitar to play cleanly in that circumstance you have to start allowing excessive bow on the neck.

Shockwarrior · **Joined:** Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:02 am **Posts:** 488

nikininja wrote:

A raise at the headstock end of around a 32nd is ok any more than that, I shim to take that out and bring it back to parallel. I don't tolerate any kind of minus measurement on it. To get the guitar to play cleanly in that circumstance you have to start allowing excessive bow on the neck.

Yes only talking about Fender Stratocasters here.
So are you saying if the neck set straight back a 32nd (as opposed to forward) that is bad because you would require (a some what subtle) forward bow to overcome it or would you shim it or carve wood?

Twelvebar · **Posted:** Wed Feb 03, 2010 12:04 am

Your neck angle compared to the plane of the top of the guitar body will determine how high the bridge will sit, and thus how high the strings are from the face of the guitar. on a Strat you want the angle to be almost parallel to the top.

The only time you touch the truss rod is for this:

put a capo on the first fret and press the sixth string down at the last fret. With a feeler gauge, check the gap between the bottom of the string and the top of the 8th fret. These are the gaps the factory recommends for the different fretboard radii :

Neck Radius ... Relief
7.25" : .012" (0.3 mm)
9.5" to 12" : .010" (0.25 mm)
15" to 17" : .008" (0.2 mm)

This is the only thing you address with the trussrod.

any buzzing or action issues are best addressed at the bridge,like Niki said at the bridge.

most people don't really understand the purpose of the truss rod. Your neck is a cantilever, that is a rod that is attached at one end, but free on the other. Even though, on fenders, it is hard rock maple, long term stresses from the strings may bend or warp it. The purpose of the truss rod is to reinforce the neck, and maintain it's original bow, and help prevent bending or twisting. Ideally it is not supposed to impart curve or bow to the neck.it is only there to keep the neck from failing. so your trussrod should only be adjusted to give the proper relief, listed above under string tension. It should not be used to 'force' the neck into a new shape.

never monkey with the trussrod to adjust your action, only your relief, which is measured with the string pressed down. action is a whole other animal, if your neck is adjusted properly action should only be addressed at the bridge, and at the nut.

Shockwarrior · **Joined:** Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:02 am **Posts:** 488

Twelvebar wrote:

never monkey with the trussrod to adjust your action, only your relief, which is measured with the string pressed down. action is a whole other animal, if your neck is adjusted properly action should only be addressed at the bridge, and at the nut.

Oh so your saying to set some relief (forward bow) in the neck, is that to allow a lower action, prevent buzzing out or is it for cosmetic purposes?

nikininja · **Posted:** Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:16 am

Shockwarrior wrote:

nikininja wrote:

A raise at the headstock end of around a 32nd is ok any more than that, I shim to take that out and bring it back to parallel. I don't tolerate any kind of minus measurement on it. To get the guitar to play cleanly in that circumstance you have to start allowing excessive bow on the neck.

Yes only talking about Fender Stratocasters here.
So are you saying if the neck set straight back a 32nd (as opposed to forward) that is bad because you would require (a some what subtle) forward bow to overcome it or would you shim it or carve wood?

Yeah mate its a unnecessary strain on the neck. I had the problem once on a poor fitting aftermarket body. Because I'd have to shim the headstock end of the pocket to correct it. I decided I didnt want to do that so took off a little from the pickup side of the neckpocket. A very precarious event with a chisel, that I wouldnt recommend to anyone. I spent a good couple of hours doing it with sandpaper. Luckily the pocket had been lacquered :cry:

so mainly what I took off was lacquer. As you most probably know you dont need to adjust much at that point to create a notable difference.

Why are you experiencing that problem. I would in that case be tempted to shape a new floor for the pocket. I wouldnt want to be going much above 2mm with the depth of the new floor though. It would certainly be easier to get the angle of the shim right in that case When you can remove the whole floor to work on it. Ceri is really the man to ask on that. You should see what he went through on his blue strat's body.

Ceri · **Posted:** Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:54 am

Shockwarrior wrote:

Twelvebar wrote:

never monkey with the trussrod to adjust your action, only your relief, which is measured with the string pressed down. action is a whole other animal, if your neck is adjusted properly action should only be addressed at the bridge, and at the nut.

Oh so your saying to set some relief (forward bow) in the neck, is that to allow a lower action, prevent buzzing out or is it for cosmetic purposes?

Hi Shockwarrior: the issue here is confusing relief and action. Relief is set with the trussrod. Action is set with the saddles and to a tiny extent the nut.

With set up the sequence is vital. Set the relief - then leave it alone. Move on to the action which, assuming the nut is right, is done entirely with saddle height. When it's right - leave it. Intonation last, as we all know.

If you're addressing action issues with the trussrod then things are going wrong - and that is what leads to so many of the set up problems people post about here.

Anyhow. Back to the others' capable hands...

Cheers - C

Shockwarrior · **Joined:** Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:02 am **Posts:** 488

nikininja wrote:

Yeah mate its a unnecessary strain on the neck. I had the problem once on a poor fitting aftermarket body.

Hmm I would have thought a set back neck would have the same strain on the neck exerted by the strings at pitch.

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