Hey Guys,

I'm new to the forum but haven't seen this particular issue posted yet so I thought I'd give it a try and see if anyone else was is the same boat as me.

I have a late 90's model MIM Strat that I've put lace sensors in, replaced the bridge and have played for years. I refuse to replace it because I've never played a strat that fit me better and played easier. The only issue I have is with the G-String. No matter what I do I can't seem to get the intonation right. I've taken it to people who claim to be professionals, and have spent hours myself messing with the bridge saddles (on both bridges) tweaking the truss rod and even trying different wrap counts at the tuning machine. the G-String is always just a little off.

I've read that pressure at the nut has an effect on the intonation. So, I've noticed that american made strats these days have two string trees. Would adding a second string tree to mine solve the issue. Or would swapping the set out for staggered tuning machines do it? I need help...

Thanks in advance for your time and consideration.

Have you tried lowering your pickups? If one of the magnets is too close to the G string (which can easily happen with staggered height pickups), it can mess up trying to set its intonation.

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Member #26797
My other guitar is a Strat.

Thanks for the reply.

Yes I tried that as well actually. Forgot to mention that.

I should clarify tho, I don't think I have staggered pickups. I thought the Lace Sensors minimized that effect.

Thanks again.

I have ZERO experience with Lace Sensors. They still have magnets, right?

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Member #26797
My other guitar is a Strat.

Ok the open G on fender guitars sounds somewhat 'squarewave' like its slightly muted on the ringout of the note (compare to open B). I havent gone into it a great deal. Not enough to determine if its scale length or break angle over the nut.

However

I am pretty well up on nuts and intonation, I measured and designed my own compensated nut for low end intonation and that doesnt suffer the problem. BUT I am very attentive to nut slot depth and break angle (I mean I lay awake worrying about em). Either of those can ruin a nut that performs perfectly on other strings, partcularly the problem G. I found that upping the gauge to .021/.022 allieviates the problem but you have to comprimise the plain G string.

Bringing the G section of the nut 17/64's" closer to the first fret, reset the strings 12th fret intonation then file back to get a perfect A at the 2nd fret and a slightly (+/- 2cents) A flat at the first fret (constant check with every couple of file passes) helps.

Heres what I came up with.


The tele nut has a little more but is set for a specific compensated 3 saddle bridge system.

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No no and no

Not really. They still use magnets but have very little string pull. Here's a good explanation I found online:

Lace Sensors are true single-coil pickups; however, internally they are different from classic single coils. The chief difference is that the coil is surrounded by metal barriers which blocks electro-magnetic interference such as power line hum. These barriers also help concentrate the magnetic field, allowing weaker magnets to be used, which results in less string pull. Less string pull, in turn, means truer pitch and intonation, and superior sustain.

Definitely check them out if you have a chance. Amazing tone and almost no noise.

So, I'm thinking my intonation issue stems from something else. I figured the string trees because the american strats have two and mine has one. Shot in the dark at this point.

Thanks.[/quote]

Niki might be showing you the path towards solution of your problem.

One thing I've done, when it seems the nut might not be in the right place and getting the guitar intonated up and down the neck is hard, is to try to set the intonation to frets 1 and 13. Tune G/fret 1 to G# and then check what you get on fret 13 (not pressing too hard). If you can get those two frets to be an octave apart, check the other frets.

Or use frets 2 and 14, etc ...

Of course, I'm assuming the string isn't the problem ...

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Member #26797
My other guitar is a Strat.

Lace pickups have a different magnetic pull compared to other singlecoils. Not the normal up/down pull of traditional designs.


They even say put em as close to the string as you find comfortable.

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No no and no

Could it be a wiring issue that is manifesting itself predominantly on the G note at that octave? Longshot I know.

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No no and no

I doubt it's a wiring issue. The string passes the standard 12 fret harmonic test. But the string is out of tune on the first 3 frets. If I intonate to those frets then it's out in 8-12 range. Really frustrating, haha.

Is this a common issue or am I doing something wrong?

Thanks again.

No Briguy, your not doing anything wrong at all. The only way to intonate frets 1-3 is with the method I mentioned above. You cant do it at the saddle, saddles only really affect the 6/7-21/22 area.

I really think your nut has been inexpertly cut. They havent taken the slot deep enough or dont have a sufficient break angle from the front to back of the slot. Therin lies a lot of low end intonation troubles. I've spent loads of time trying to get a guitar thats perfectly intonated in that region. Its nigh on impossible without severe fretwork. I gave up in the end and consigned myself to the fact that I'll never have a perfectly in tune guitar. The problem lies in the 4th and 5th interval of any chromatic scale. Basicaly the degree measurement of those intervals strays from the degree measurement of the other intervals. If you could get it right at G it wouldnt be correct for anything else. Lots of info here on that.
Click Here

For an exhaustive explanation click here


Adding a string tree to the D/G strings may help a little for the ring of the open note. Its by no means a complete fix though.

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No no and no

I'm going to make some general observations and suggestions in regards to this subject as a whole. I'm not trying to negate what others have said here, simply trying to offer some things that may have been over-looked. This is just my usual "thinking outside of the box" here, looking for things beyond the obvious (or things that are soooo obvious people tend to over look them). These are as always just my own personal opinions so please use them as such...

"No matter what I do I can't seem to get the intonation right. I've taken it to people who claim to be professionals, and have spent hours myself messing with the bridge saddles"

Ok...do you have the saddle screwed all the way back or all of the way forward? For example, I have a '96 MIM and as the strings get older, the intonation on the low E slips out to the point that even with the saddle screwed tight against the back of the bridge, the intonation is still out. For me the solution is to simply keep fresher strings on it and not let them get to old between string changes. On the other hand, if the saddle is set somewhere in the middle of it's screw travel (such as it typical on a G string), then it should be possible to set the intonation.

That leads me to my second question...how old are the strings? I'm assuming you are using reasonably fresh strings to do this (if after all you said you changed the bridge). If you're one of those folks who prefers older strings, please keep in mind that strings -do- stretch as they get older and this -will- effect intonation (again sometimes people tend to over-look the obvious). With that I also have to ask, how often are you checking the intonation? Many players...particularly inexperience players seem to be of the impression that intonation is something you just need to set once in a while...in other words, "set it and forget it". Again however strings stretch as they get older and equally as important, guitars are made out of wood...they are very subject to changes in temperature and humidity. In other words, your intonation can (and often does) change...sometimes on a daily basis depending on your environmental conditions. Personally I'll put new strings on a given guitar, wait a day or two for the brand new strings to stretch a bit, then I'll set my intonation. For regular practices or jams I won't worry about it too much but if I have a gig or a recording session, then I will ALWAYS check/reset the intonation (and general setup) a night or two before hand just to make sure everything is right.

Also, on a related note...have you tried a different brand of strings...perhaps Ernie Balls as apposed to Fender Supers for example? Do you buy your strings in "bulk"...if you do perhaps you simply got a bad lot of strings where -all- of the G strings maybe had a consistency problem (unlikely but again...it happens).

I am assuming that when you changed the bridge, that you also changed the bridge saddles as well...or rather that new saddles came on the new bridge and that you just didn't re-use the old saddles(?). -If- by chance you do re-use the old saddles, you may just have a bad saddle (hey...it happens). On a similar note, you also may wish to check and make sure the string is seating in the trem block correctly as well...perhaps you simply have a piece of goo or gunk down in the string hole that's preventing the string from seating properly.

You also may wish to take a really close look at the frets as well. For example, if you are a blues player by chance who tends to play in the key of E a lot, you may be doing a great deal of string bends on the G string up there around the 12th fret or so (a lot of folks do!) that may have caused a bit more wear and tear on the frets...at least more so than on the other strings or other positions of the neck. I won't speak for others here but I know most of my guitars (that I play regularly at least) do tend to have a few flat spots on certain frets, in certain keys where I tend to play more than others. For example, I tend to have a lot of wear on around the 7th fret and the 12th fret because I tend to play in they keys of E and A a lot where as I have almost no wear at all around the 2nd or 14th frets because I almost never play in F#.

Now I have to ask here, just how bad is this intonation problem specifically? The reason I ask this is that I think we're all assuming that this problem must be fairly significant for you to be asking about it...i.e. the intonation on that G string is like a half step flat/sharp or something. Most folks tend to hear things just a tad bit differently and some folks hear "little things" that others never even notice...for example, I remember reading once that EVH claimed he could hear the difference between lengths of cable...something the greater majority of us would NEVER notice. I even recently read where some folks think the type of pick (plectrum for you folks across the pond) or the material it's made out of effects their sound/tone. The truth of the matter is that guitars...even top of the line American made Strats and such, simply are NOT perfect when it comes to intonation. Folks have been trying to address this issue for a great many years with things such as compensating nuts (such as Ninja suggested) and I've even seen one company that makes compensating frets. To put that in a nut shell, -if- this really is a significant problem with the intonation on that string, then certainly it needs to be addressed but -if- it's really only something very minor (perhaps something that only -you- can hear), it may just be easier for you to learn to live with it instead of driving yourself insane trying to fix something that can't really be "perfect".

That also leads me to another question as well...are you absolutely sure that it's not just your playing style? Again you've said that you have taken the guitar to people who "claim to be professionals"...does the intonation seem correct with a meter but just off when you're playing the guitar? Over the years I've noticed that some folks seem to think they have problems with the intonation on either the G or B strings...you check it with a good meter and it's right on the nose but as they're playing, they feel something is out. The most common reason for this is simply the person's technique...again many people tend to do the most "string bends" on the G string. I'm not saying this is necessarily your case but it -is- worth considering...if the string is set correctly during a setup but sounds off when you're playing, it could just be you're playing.

Now I'm not trying to be rude or mean here...I'm really not but I really feel the need to reiterate those last couple of issues there. I'm going to use one of my infamous photography analogies here...a lot of folks will go out and buy a camera or even buy a "good" camera and they wonder why they can't take decent pictures. Their first thought is often "well...I just must need a better camera or better lenses". Many if not most people will never stop to consider that just perhaps the problem is them...their technique and not the equipment. Particularly in regards to a guitar and someone who's perhaps been playing for a while, many people will not stop to think that maybe it's just their hands and not the guitar that's causing the problem. "I've been playing for XX so many years, blah, blah, blah...it just couldn't be me!", LOL!!! Seriously...if you and others have repeatedly set the intonation maybe the problem isn't the guitar.....

Again this is strictly my own personal opinion but if you are absolutely positive that it's not just you...either your playing style or just your ears being overly sensitive and you're -SURE- it really is a problem with the guitar itself, to me it seems you should go with the basic process of elimination. Check one thing at a time and make sure it's not the problem (make yourself a check list if necessary)...check the strings, check the saddle, check the bridge (again), check the nut, check the frets, etc., etc.. In the words of the immortal Sherlock Holmes, "Once you've eliminated the impossible whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truth".

Just a few things for you to think about...good luck!
Jim

Lomitus
It doesnt have to be bad, low fret intonation is a real curse. Particularly on the G,B and high E strings. Its where all the 3rds are so poorly intonated E, D, A, C and B chords on those first few frets sound utterly terrible. You only have to be a cent out. Once you hear it theres no getting rid of it. It drives you mental till you consign yourself to the fact that you have to ignore it a lot of the time.
It's low fret intonation that is troubling the OP. Bridge saddles play absolutely no part in curing it. He's either going to get away with having the slot properly re-cut or fitting some sort of compensated nut.
I suspect its a slot cut issue as he has a poor break angle over that particular slot.

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No no and no

I would have someone who is good look at your nut and see if the nut is cut too high. Lowering the nut will change the length of the string by shortening it I think. The last 2 guitars I have bought both had nuts cut too high a MIA Standard Strat and a PRS SE.

Hey Jim,

You went over a lot of really good points and I appreciate your time in considering it all.

To answer a few of your questions first:

The bridge was replaced because I had worn out the G-String's saddle in the original bridge trying to fix this issue.

I play Ernie Ball Strings mostly but have tried DRs, D'Addarios, and Fenders and had the issue with all 4 brands. I usually change my strings every 2-4 weeks depending on the use of the guitar. And I always change the strings a week before in preparation of a recording session.

The frets are definitely an issue. It needs to be re-fretted for sure but I wanted to wait until I knew I could resolve this issue. It's been there since I bought the guitar and I don't think refretting will completely fix it.

I should clarify where the issue bothers me: I'm an audio engineer professionally and I spend my days recording and over analyzing, haha. Before I record any instrument I make 100% sure that it is session ready (intonation, string age, etc.) at least to the best of my ability. Perhaps, having someone look at the nut niki suggested is the way to go. I've never had that done and is not something I know how to do.

Niki, would you happen to know anyone you trust in the southern california area to do something like this?? I refuse to take it to a guitar center...

I've been playing for 11 years and recording for 6. There are most definitely flaws in my playing but I've put this guitar in many players' hands with many different styles so it seems far fetched that we would all have the same specific flaw.

I've also played many other guitars without this issue. So, the issue is not specific to any one player, any one string type or age. It's not severe enough to affect the guitar's PLAYABILITY at all. I still use it to play with bands I'm considering recording and just messing around and it's a dream.

But it IS enough to affect the guitar's RECORD-ABILITY. The guitar's tone and range is absolutely perfect for so many applications that I have not heard in other strats, and I badly want it as a recording tool. This little road block has made that impossible. Any slight tuning issue is amplified when compressed and placed out front in a mix.

The root of my original question stems from the fact that I've played american made strats that did not have this issue. And, just observationally I had noticed that american made strats had two string trees. I know enough to be dangerous but I'm not a guitar tech...

I really appreciate all the time you all have given me on this issue.

Brian