The Ibanez Artcors are pretty good playin inexpensive guitars. I think they also have binding issues.

We know, the starcaster is china made, the point is the chinese guitars are of lower quality. Wood, electronics, finish, etc... are lower then MIM guitars. What we are getting to is an American Strat for $150 would be another Starcaster with a 22nd Fret. (Only MIA strats have 22 frets, all others MIJ,MIM,China,Indonesia,Korea, etc... 21)

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Gigged tonight, finished, foolishly packed the guitar away (custom classic), got called back for an encore. The support band lent me a squire. fifteen seconds in, I didnt know the difference. The guitar was beautifully set up, nearly as good as I'd have got it.

Quality control standards (ie what they let through) of foreign manufacturers for domestic companies is set by the board of the domestic company. The same is true of the components their told to use. Ultimately their the people making profit from the foreign manufactured product. So if you want to lay blame anywhere look at the homegrown bigshots.

Thats all I'm saying on the MIA vs overseas debate.

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No no and no

I guess you are right. The tone is in the hands of the guitarist. I gave my daughter a Squire for Christmas, I put MIM pickups in it. The guitar sounds great. Action, fit, finish are all really good. The only reason I do not like the guitar is neck is really narrow. I bet you put on a good show though!

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"Epitaph on a blues musician’s tombstone: “I didn’t wake up this morning”" Davy Knowles


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Dutchy what you like or dislike isw entirely your business and no one can tell you otherwise. If they repeatedly try, cuff em across the ear.

The point of the first part of my previous post is that with care and attention you can make a old banger run like a rolls royce with enough time, patience and dedication.

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No no and no

Actually...I think you just made one of my biggest points for me

No, I'm not saying that Fender should build guitars in US sweat shops (not that I believe for one moment that either the Mexico, Japan or China Fender plants are sweat shops...in fact I seriously doubt it)...I don't think that's what I said and I certainly didn't mean to imply that. The biggest part of the point was simply a hypothetical scenario in that -if- Fender were to make a guitar here in the USA at the same price point as some of the Squier imports (which again obviously isn't going to happen), how would the quality of such an instrument compare with it's overseas counterpart? You said "you get what you pay for always" so wouldn't that imply that the quality would be...or rather should be exactly same??? But based on the majority of the responses so far, that doesn't really seem to be the general consensus...

I wanted to address your post specifically because it really does seem to imply some misconceptions about inexpensive guitars...at least based on price alone. If your comment about getting what you pay for were really true then it shouldn't matter where a guitar was made...or even -if- said factory was actually a sweat shop or not. This really is just my humble opinion and it's certainly subjective to say the least but I really don't think that a company such as Fender (and certainly not Gibson) could really put out a guitar at the price points I suggested with any degree of quality comparable to the imports (particularly Squier) at the same price point. In other words...and again just my opinion...but it really seems that the whole idea of "you get what you pay for" really doesn't seem to apply to a global market such as we're discussing here and certainly not "always"...that just doesn't make any sense.




Peace,
Jim

Heh Jim;
I agree with most people here. To build domesticall means paying labour plus all the benefit package. obviously the price of oversea shipping is the only place you would save money, and that isn't going to make much of a dent in the benefits/perks/taxes you would be paying here, that you avoid using developing world labour.

On "You get what you pay for" well, nowadays "You get what you pay for, only if you are really lucky, and if you really do your homework"

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I'm not an expert, but I play one on the internet.

You get what you pay for as in Quality parts cost more so the overall price will be more. Im sure fender could build a 150 dollar guitar in the US but there busy making 1000 dollar guitars with a higher profit margin. Its all about the margin. Its cheaper to have them built over seas so they make there margin and stay in the market.

Hey Twelvebar,
Please forgive me but I'm going to switch the order of your message around here to address it...I think you make some really good points .



Now this I can certainly agree with! I think a really good example of this is the folks who buy something like a Strat off Ebay or Craigslist...they see, they want, they buy and then they wonder why they ended up with a "fake". What's worse is then they'll go on about scammers and how someone needs to stop these people when the truth is they simply didn't do their homework or research the actual product they were buying.

It's kind of funny really...most folks will usually do a little research when they're buying something like a new car for example. Usually they'll compare models, maybe look up an article or two in "Consumer Reports" and at the very least, they'll take it out for a test drive before they sign anything. I dunno...maybe it's just a money thing. Maybe folks aren't as concerned about loosing something like $400 on a guitar as they are about loosing $40,000 on a new car. On some level I guess that makes sense but personally I try to do as much research as I can when I go out to buy something...heck, I just spent a few weeks researching blenders so I could get one that wouldn't burn up the next time I try to puree' something! LOL!!! I guess in my case part of it is just that my wife and I have been "poor" for so long that I always try to get the very most that I can for my money...I don't get to buy new things like that very often so I try to make sure I don't end up screwing myself over by being "impulsive" with my purchases.

BTW...in case anyone's actually interested, I ended up getting a brand new, 500 watt, $50 Kenmore blender on clearance for $13 .



This certainly does seem to be the general consensus here. I'm probably going to come off sounding like a bit of a snit here and rather "anti-American" but it seems to me that part of the problem is really American workers and American "values". Let's face it, a good portion of the world has viewed us Yanks as "greedy capitalist pigs" for quite a while now. Sometimes it really seems as though a lot of people really think they deserve to have a $450,000 house filled with all the latest and coolest gadgets (i.e. big flat panels, premium stereo system, top of the line appliances, etc., etc.,) as well as a brand new car in the driveway every 4 years, full premium medical benefits and so on. What's worse is that often a lot of people really don't seem to think that they are even supposed to have to work for it...as though it's their god given right or something.

Maybe I'm a little sensitive to this (or maybe a lot) as I do live here in a "steel town". Within a few miles of my home there's a struggling steel plant (the former USS/KOBE Steel) as well as 2 Ford plants (one of which is currently closed). I used to do contract computer repair at both the steel plant as well as one of the Ford plants and it really used to irk the crap out of me to see guys making upwards of $40 an hour or more who sat around for up to 6 hours of their shift playing cards! At the steel plant I had to go out on more than one occasion and install new hard drives on systems because some one ran out of room for their PC games!!! I'm not kidding here...this is no exaggeration at all. And if you try to take these things away from these people, the union screams "Strike!". But then these same people wonder why America can't compete and their solution is to try and put import tariffs or simply ban less expensive imports.

(...and everyone PLEASE forgive my little rant here!)

Now what gets me about this is if America is indeed the capitol of capitalism, the real solution seems clear. Let's face it, if you have 2 merchants working the same street and "Merchant B" has lower prices and better service than "Merchant A", then A needs to lower their prices, improve their service (and/or both) or simply go out of business. That's the way capitalism works right? After all, if "Joe's Ford" is selling a brand new Mustang for $4000 less than "Bob's Ford" and Joe's has a (well earned) reputation for customer service, aren't most people going to buy from Joe's? I know I sure would! LOL!!! The same thing certainly applies to guitars...price fixing issues aside, if say Sam Ash sold a brand new American made Strat for say $250 less than Guitar Centers, assuming I was in the market for one, you can bet your bottom I'd buy at Sam Ash!!!

The problem seems to come in when you try and apply this mentality to a world market...suddenly people start screaming it's not fair for cheaper import products to be sold at lower price points and of course the argument follows that the import stuff must be pure "junk". Now quite honestly, I've never been one to support the whole idea of "Buy American"...my family simply can't afford it. When given a choice between buying...let's say bed sheets...and given a choice between paying $60 for American made at some place like Bed, Bath and Beyond and $25 for made in China at Walmart...I'm going to Walmart every time! Is the quality going to be as good? Probably not. But that's not the question...to me the question is simply "will the quality be good enough for the price?".

Obviously this is again a bit subject and I'm SURE I'm going to get flamed out the wazoo for this but it seems to me that the biggest part of the problem is simply American workers and again American values. In the case of the scenario that we've been talking about...making an inexpensive guitar at the same price point of the imports...to me it seems that an American company should be able to do this if American workers weren't so...well...greedy. I don't really have anything against people making a "fair wage" but the question really is how exactly does one define "fair"? Certainly an American worker is going to make a higher wage at a mass production facility such as Fender compared with their Mexican or Chinese counterparts but I seriously have to wonder if those wages are even directly proportional to things such as cost of living and such. For example, is it really a matter of those Chinese workers (or "developing third world countries") being subject to the proverbial "sweat shops" (which again in Fender's case I seriously doubt) or is it simply that those Chinese workers know they don't really need a $400,000 home in the suburbs with 2 cars in the driveway the way American workers seem to think they do?

I think this is a perspective thing really. Personally I don't really need a $400,000 home...I'd be happy if I could just afford to get the roof on my $40,000 house fixed. Some folks really seem to believe that they need to make $40 an hour or more just to "survive" where as some of us would be really happy if we could just find a half way job, let alone one where we make $10 to $12 an hour. Some folks think they're entitled to a steak dinner and Crème brûlée where as a person who's gone hungry is happy...often quiet happy with the occasional hamburger. I was recently talking to a person who was going on about how he hated "managed health care" but as a person who has no medical insurance at all, managed health care seems like a truly wonderful thing to me...-if- I could afford it. Again I'm sure that I'm going to get flamed for this but it really makes one wonder what all of this really says about some of us Americans?



I could almost accept that except for one thing...the price of those "quality" parts on something such as an American Standard don't really cost that much more than they do on even a Squier Bullet, let alone some of the better Squier models such as the Standards or the CVs. From a mass production stand point, I'm reasonably sure that stuff like the tuning keys, string t's and even the bridge assemblies and pickups used on an American standard vs. those used on a Squier Standard really isn't that much higher...at least not enough to warrant close to a $1000 difference. Certainly "workmanship" is a factor but to some degree I addressed that above and that's not what you suggested anyways. Seriously...think about it...do you really think that the tuners used on something like an American Standard really cost that much more than those used on a Squier Standard or even an Affinity?? Isn't it more likely that the difference is more along the lines of only a buck or two if not pennys on the dollar? Yea...sure...a full size steel bridge block -is- going to cost a few bucks more than a half sized zinc alloy but even with after market you can buy those steel blocks usually for around only $50...from a mass production price point I'm sure they're -much- cheaper than that! Even if you factor in the cost of the wood and even the tooling to machine the parts, based on after market pricing we're still only talking about a difference of a couple hundred dollars tops and certainly MUCH less for a well established company such as Fender. Certainly not enough to really warrant such a drastic difference in price! I'm not trying to be rude here but that's really a poor argument on that specific issue.



Well, again let me reiterate that what I was suggesting was purely hypothetical in order to prove a point. I'm sure that Fender probably could produce a $150 guitar here in the US of A if they chose too...my question was how would the quality of such an instrument compare with that of similarly priced imports. Obviously we'll never know for sure...you're absolutely correct when you say it's all about profit margin and I get that...I really do. That said, -if- Fender were to make such an instrument (which again and again they obviously won't), I still really have to feel that such an instrument just wouldn't compare with the imports...considering all of the factors that others have mentioned such as the cost of American labor and such, I just don't think it would be possible for Fender (and especially Gibson) to produce an instrument of the same quality of the imports at the same price point.

Think of it this way...let's say Fender here in the US were to make an inexpensive guitar comparable to a Squier Affinity Strat which currently goes for $179. I'm sure they could do it...after all, they're doing it overseas. The question is, for Fender USA to make a guitar of the same quality as that Affinity, -could- they do it so that guitar would sell at the same $179? Because of all the reasons I and others have posted, I really think the answer is a resounding "no"...I don't think that's an unfair statement at all. It really seems much more likely that such an instrument would likely be more in the $250 to $300 range if not more. Yes, I'm sure some folks would still buy it if for no other reason that it was "Made in the USA" and said people would probably go on about how much better it is than the imports but that too is a very different issue. So again applying your concept of "you get what you pay for always", how can you really make that work? I'm sorry but it doesn't...it just doesn't work. If both guitars were of the same, or at least similar quality but the American one is even $50 to $100 more expensive to pay for that higher cost of labor, then your concept of cost vs. quality just does -NOT- apply here.

As I eluded to earlier, there's a misconception that just because something costs more, that somehow is must be better than something that costs less. That may have been true at one time in this country perhaps but it really doesn't apply any more when you take all of the factors of a given product in to consideration.

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Anyways, I'm obviously rambling now. I think the general consensus here pretty much shows what I was trying to get at originally in regards to quality vs. price point as it applies to USA vs. imports. I know that at least a few people got the point I was trying to make and I'm sure that a few others simply can't or won't accept it...such is life.

Peace,
Jim

(Wow...I wrote all that? )

Lets keep it real anything made for $150 is pretty much going to be $@!&. You are going to get the cheapest material going and the guitar would probably not even be playable. You get what you pay for up to a certain extent then cosmetic issues or on artist series they have to get there cut. I would believe for $1,500 you should be able to have a pro ax that you can tweak anyway you want and it should stand up and do the job.

[quote=

but hey, we all have issues with Gibson anyways, so I don't want to run down that rabbit hole.

oh yeah, pics of the 335 if anyone is interested:


[/quote]

Who has issues with Gibson? I have issues with $50 pieces of Asian firewood.

Lomitus, my friend, I hear you and I totally understand and support what you have said. I'm from a "third world country" myself, so...
It's not a "third world country" to us. It's reality. It's just the way it is. And we are very well used to it. Well, not used to it, it's always been that way. And yes, most of us here, who come from and live in such a country think Americans are spoiled. So, you have a very big support from all over the world, 2/3 of the world I guess.
I don't want to insult anybody, it's just a battle of opinions.

_________________
"If you're on a path that's beaten, it's not your path." Joseph Campbell

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me."

"All that is impossible remains to be achieved."
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www.stratcollector.com

Let's be realistic on this question. Say it takes 4-6 total hours building a guitar from start to finish (not accounting for drying time for paint-jobs of course).

American Minimum wage is $7.25/hour

At 6 hours would equal $43.50 in labor. At the 150 price range that leaves $106.50 for materials. I do not think you can get quality parts/wood for that price range. No.

If you can afford a $700-$1000 guitar, buy American. If you have a tighter budget, buy from another country. The important thing is to enjoy what you are playing.

RK

I get what you're saying, particularly about "keeping it real" but that does address some of the comments about my issues above in regards to us greedy Yanks. Here in the US, that "minimum wage" really isn't crap for someone to try and live on. Think about it...at $7.25 an hour, that's $240 a week and $1160 a month ($13.920 a year) before taxes. Seriously...try and live on that here in the US!!! However, in certain parts of the world, that will at the very least put food on the table and keep a roof over your head with a little bit to spare.

Now many folks here in the US will simply think "oh...poor backwards countries" (with nothing but sweat shop labor) but couldn't that also be seen as Americans (and a few other Western countries) as being -seriously- over-paid with a standard of living that's perhaps too high?

Goranm really hit it there (and thank you!) in showing that this is really a perspective issue. To keep this relevant to the topic, I don't think this issue is really that guitars coming from places such as China and Taiwan are really all that "cheap and pathetic" as some folks seem to feel, I think it's that we Americans have forgotten how to make things affordable. It seems as though so many people have gotten so caught up in the chase for the "American Dream" that ideas such as pragmatism and common sense have really flow by the way side. Think about it...know anyone who's spent $400 - $800 on a new flat screen TV but wouldn't even consider donating even half of that to a charity let alone something like a local food bank? How many people in this country even do charitable volunteer work or would even take a few minutes to pick up some trash off the ground at a local park where their kids play?

Companies such as Fender and Gibson should be able to build reasonable quality affordable instruments here in the US but because of the way our economy is set up and the way we've chosen to live as a culture, we can't...or at least it's really difficult and that just seems wrong to me.




Ok...still playing devil's advocate here but going on what we've been discussing, if we American's can't seem to build a quality inexpensive instrument for the same price as some of the imports, wouldn't that also seem to indicate that the higher priced imports should actually be better than the equivalent American products as well? If an import company has a guitar for the $170 price range and an American company would have to charge upwards of $300 for a similar quality guitar (again because of US labor and other factors), then shouldn't that mean that a $400 or $500 import would be pretty equivalent to a US made model in that $700 price range? Seems pretty logical to me...




Now this I completely and undeniably agree with .




Well I won't speak for anyone else here but I know I certainly have issues with Gibson! For one thing as others have suggested, they're -way- over-priced! As Bynapkinart said, "overall they depend a ton on their name to sell their product" and I really have to agree with that (and of course Gibson isn't the only company like this either). I've played a few higher priced Les Paul knock-offs over the years that are still of very similar quality as a genuine Gibby and even when you factor in the "import vs. American" issue we've been discussing, there's still a huge price gap that can only really be accounted for by the Gibson name.




Hey, if you can afford "the best", good for you...but not everyone's that lucky! Again, it's a perspective issue my friend and nothing more. I've known a lot of people who at one time or another would have been happy with one of those piece of firewood just to have something to play.


_________________________________


Anyways.....

Peace,
Jim

ouch...

see, i would be all bummed out about that comment, but i'm remembering that a Gibson ES-335 Dot Reissue is equal to roughly 4 moths rent, a down payment on a new car, ten of these things, or three new strats. i'm cool with my chinese 335, especially when it has better electronics, better action (for me, anyways...i have big hangs but fat necks feel strange to me), and is more playable than the Gibson 335's i've had my hands on (except for a VERY nice 1964 335 that my friend has...only 335 that felt amazing first thing).

when i have money, i would love to get a nice 63 block 335 in antique burst (with the 30/60 neck), throw some of these dimarzios i have in it, and have an amazing $4,500 guitar that i'll never take to shows. for now, i LOVE my firewood 335

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Gear list:
2004 Epiphone Casino
----Peerless, USA electronics
2001 "Firewood" ES-335
----USA electronics, Gibson and DiMarzio PAFs
2001 Cort NTL20 Jumbo Acoustic
2007 Hofner Copy
Vox AC4TV/V112TV
Voice
Fingers
Cowbell