Hey Ya'll,
While I was was sitting here ranting on over in the Squier forum, I had another one of those really silly thoughts go through my head. Now I'm not really trying to rehash the age old debates about "American vs. Import" or "Fender vs. Squier" here...I'm really not. People feel the way the feel (myself included) regardless of rhyme or reason and an arbitrary thread on an internet forum is never going to change that very much, but...


Ok...for better or worse, a lot of folks crack on guitars such as Squier Bullets and Affinities calling them "junk" (among other things) and always pointing out how they are of such inferior quality, particularly when compared with something such as an American Standard. Now I -KNOW- this will NEVER happen but the idea crossed my mind...what would a $100 - $150 "American made" Strat be like? Think about it...let's say that Fender were to put out the equivalent of a Squier Bullet that costs $120 just like the current "Crafted in China" Bullets and/or a $160 model similar to the Affinitys but those models were made here in the USA instead of over-seas...would those instruments be "better" or "worse" than the current models that are made in China?

Hhhmmmmm. I'm sure that some folks are still going to say that the American made models would still be better...simply because they were made in the USA but nationalistic pride aside, to me logic would seem to dictate that because the workers in China are often paid a MUCH lower wage than American workers (regardless of skill or their craftsmanship abilities)...which is part of what makes those instruments more affordable, that an American made instrument sold at that same price point would be...well...an unbelievable piece of crap to say the least, yes/no?

I know, I know...it's purely hypothetical and again will certainly NEVER happen. I'm really just playing devil's advocate here more than anything. Still, I think it's an interesting perspective on the age old debates particularly in a global market and I would love to hear some opinions!

Peace,
Jim

I think a guitar in that price range made in the US would suck. Badly. Labor is much cheaper in mexico and china, so it probably wouldnt even be a complete guitar for that price if it was built here.

Very interesting....

Like you mentioned we can't compete with the (low) rate of pay in countries like China or Korea. Another consideration in the cost of production is the adherence to environmental standards... 3rd world countries simply don't have to or if they do they certainly aren't up to American standards. That's a huge expense for a large scale manufacturer. Then there's insurance, benefits, the list goes on.

All that aside, I'm sure we could build just as crappy a guitar here in the States, using budget electronic, plywood, white metal, etc as they build in some third world sweatshop. Case in point, look at the American auto industry during the better part of of the last 30 years...albeit we could never compete with foreign prices, we certainly designed and have built some of the most hideous automobiles in the history of the auto, say nothing of the poor quality.

This whole debate brings up one of the biggest mistakes I think Fender has ever made in my mind... moving a large portion of production (for the US market) to Mexico from Japan. There are still a few imports from Japan (the Mustang & Mustang Bass, Jaguar Bass for example) The prices for these imports are comparable with the MIM stuff and I know I'll catch hell for saying it but the quality of the MIJ stuff beats that in Mexico hands down... and IMO is on par with the stuff made right here in the States. I'm going off on a tangent so I'll end it here and let someone else add their two cents...

The only way fender could do something like that is to have it 100% machine/robot made, with the cheapest possible electronics. Mostly likely all the woods wood be made of compressed woods and the paint will be like auto paint. In other words, the guitar wouldn't be worth the label printed on it... Quality versus location(US Vs. ???)....

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"Epitaph on a blues musician’s tombstone: “I didn’t wake up this morning”" Davy Knowles


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I think there is no questions..... right now $150 can take you a lot farther overseas, where labour and manufacturing costs will most certainly always be less expensive

maybe quality control might be superior in the US, but I don't think it would be if they had to make a guitar for $150 and still make a profit. That would mean they would have to produce a guitar for around $75, so they can sell it to music stores for around $100-$110, so it can end up in our hands for $150

people like to dish on chinese and korean made guitars...but i think honestly it comes down to the style of guitar. for instance, i would never, ever buy a strat from a chinese market...they are simply far too easy to make with bad materials, and more often than not they will go bottom dollar on a guitar that is relatively simple to construct. (i might get a lot of flak for it, but honestly people, strats are made using pretty much the same jigs and machines all over the world including the USA...and in the US we pay a little bit more for wages and finish even though some MIM's are phenomenal strats. of course, the wood makes a huge impact as well.)

BUT- i just bought a chinese ES 335 copy off of craigslist for $50 (originally around $350) and spent the last few weeks putting all new hardware, electronics, and PUPs in it. it is a complicated guitar to build in any market, hence my "holy sh*t" reaction when i first played it and realized that the action, neck, finish, and tone are fantastic. after throwing in all-USA parts and DiMarzio PAF reissues, it is my sweetest sounding and playing guitar...and i payed a total $354 on it.

I think all it comes down to is if it is easy to make with crap wood and crap craftsmanship for cheap, they'll do it. if it is harder to make, sometimes you have rare hits (in my case, i think my 335 is now my number 1 guitar).

Leo did design the strat to be easy to mass-produce in high quantity and quality, which keeps a USA Fender Strat around half to a third of the price of Gibson's ES 335...but hey, we all have issues with Gibson anyways, so I don't want to run down that rabbit hole.

oh yeah, pics of the 335 if anyone is interested:





The family shot (pre-Americanization of the 335):

_________________
Gear list:
2004 Epiphone Casino
----Peerless, USA electronics
2001 "Firewood" ES-335
----USA electronics, Gibson and DiMarzio PAFs
2001 Cort NTL20 Jumbo Acoustic
2007 Hofner Copy
Vox AC4TV/V112TV
Voice
Fingers
Cowbell

A Starcaster with fancy cosmetics and 22 frets.

_________________
You dig?

Awesome ES-335 copy. I can agree with you on overseas guitars. I have an Epiphone Les Paul, but don't let that fool you. I have a custom, hand made unbucker in the neck and a Gibson BB Pro in the bridge. Electronics, tuners, and bridge are stock; replaced the nut with bone. Its a Standard in Ebony.... I bought a Gibson LP a year later and returned it because this Epiphone beat the Gibson hands down. It looks better, sounds better, and plays better. So much for Gibson's PLEK system.

For those who don't know what an unbucker is, its a humbucker with uneven coils. Its total output is 15K, but when tapped, its 9k. Humbuckers when tapped have an output near half of their full output. This is by far the best combination of a P-90, Single Coil, and Humbucker all in one....

_________________
"Epitaph on a blues musician’s tombstone: “I didn’t wake up this morning”" Davy Knowles


facebook.com/313DBC

So true!!!!!

_________________
"Epitaph on a blues musician’s tombstone: “I didn’t wake up this morning”" Davy Knowles


facebook.com/313DBC

Gibson....ughhhh. Gibson has a few decent guitars (I don't like Les Pauls or SG's, but the 335 is my all time fav and I like LP Jr's w/ p90s), but overall they depend a ton on their name to sell their product. I don't like fat necks either.

But here's the big thing for me...if Gibson only makes 335's in their custom shop, they all cost $2,500-$3,000. I've played a few of them too, and they're awesome, but they don't justify the price tag. The thing I bought is well-made, its flaws were all electronic, and when I get the bone nut figured out it'll have better appointments than the Gibby (I don't like Gibson PUPs, I love those DiMarzios though). Of course, it's a Nato (asian Mahogany) neck and an Agathis body with a maple core, but I love the tone.

Point is, if it plays well, and the acoustic tone is awesome, buy it and upgrade it. I'm up to $354, still about $100 less than my Strat pre-upgrades.

_________________
Gear list:
2004 Epiphone Casino
----Peerless, USA electronics
2001 "Firewood" ES-335
----USA electronics, Gibson and DiMarzio PAFs
2001 Cort NTL20 Jumbo Acoustic
2007 Hofner Copy
Vox AC4TV/V112TV
Voice
Fingers
Cowbell

Prolly look something like this

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The time has gone, the song is over, thought I'd something more to say.

Starcasters aren't made in America as far as I know... Mine was made in China.

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Check out my guitar news blog: http://guit-news.blogspot.com/

Somebody has way too much time on their hands!

I don,t understand this conversation. What Im hearing is fender should build guitars in the US in sweat shops so they will cost 150 dollars. Your ES335 copy looks nice. I hope the binding doesn,t seperate like most ES335 copys. You get what you pay for always.

to tell you the truth, the only binding issues i've ever seen in copies are all on epi's...i dunno what their binding process consists of, but they seem to have issues keeping the things on. I don't care. I'll play it to death, buy another one, soup up like before, and keep on playing. only another >$400 for an amazing guitar.

My strat is unfortunately sitting in the corner, dejected and lonely...I need to balance my playing time, but the 335 is too addictive.

_________________
Gear list:
2004 Epiphone Casino
----Peerless, USA electronics
2001 "Firewood" ES-335
----USA electronics, Gibson and DiMarzio PAFs
2001 Cort NTL20 Jumbo Acoustic
2007 Hofner Copy
Vox AC4TV/V112TV
Voice
Fingers
Cowbell