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Post subject: Re: Re:
Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2015 12:02 pm
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John Sims wrote:

You accept there is a difference in value (or personaly perceived import) between a TAG watch and a petrol station watch, while both just tell the time. But you don't accept the same reference between a cheaper MiM Strat and a more expensive MiA Strat.

No, I don't, I only accept they are made by different companies, to entirely different standards, with entirely different specifications and for entirely different markets. However, you still seem determined to confuse price, value & specialness & thus miss the point. Let's say, as a child, your mother gave you a petrol station watch, just before she dies. It will probably be more 'special' to you than any TAG watch you buy, no matter the price. And it may have more (sentimental) value too. Now suppose a burglar just cleared out your home of all it's valuables, would you be relieved to hear they only took things of monetary value (covered by insurance), or only things of sentimental & emotional value (irreplaceable)? Notice the difference? It may be that, for you, things always are more 'special' when they cost more, but it's not some kind of 'fact', just your own personal way of seeing things.

MiM Strats are Fenders & not Squiers for a reason, and you don't buy MiA Strats in fancy jewellers & MiM Strats in petrol stations either: These guitars compete in the same dealers & potentially to the same customers, with the same brand on the headstock. The large price difference reflects a small increase in component quality & a large difference in labour costs. If you're buying a MiA, you might as well pay over the price of a standard & get a greater improvement in quality at the same time as paying those higher labour costs, (or go the other direction & buy a high end MiM). Overall, the MiA standard seems to offer the least 'value' for money, and thus not be very 'special', IMO.

YMMV (and I'm sure it will).


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Post subject: Re: Fender American Standard vs Fender Standard (MIM) Strat
Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2015 5:48 pm
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What ever :roll: .

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Post subject: Re: Fender American Standard vs Fender Standard (MIM) Strat
Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2015 1:13 am
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OK, to avoid the analogy being deliberately slewed by mothers last breath, ownership since emerging from the womb, or 1001 other external influences which may subsequently come in to play:-

A man goes into a shop and purchases two pebbles. One costs him $500 and one $1000. In the event of an impending catastrophe, the following day, which of the two pebbles do you think he will try to save?

Assuming no other divine intervention in the 24 hrs since purchase, it would be reasonable to assume the man would favour saving the $1000 pebble over the $500. This therefore makes the $1000 pebble the more special of the two.

The fact that he chose to spend $1000 on this particular pebble in the first place, when he could have had a $500 pebble, would suggest he considered the $1000 pebble to be more superior, and thus special.

Subsequent to purchase, and prior to any other external influence, it may not be possible to confirm if the $1000 pebble is indeed better than the $500 one. However, man has already bestowed an extra $500 of specialness on the more expensive pebble in choosing to make that purchase.

Now misunderstand that Bigsby.

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Post subject: Re: Fender American Standard vs Fender Standard (MIM) Strat
Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2015 4:56 pm
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[quote="J However, man has already bestowed an extra $500 of specialness on the more expensive pebble in choosing to make that purchase.
[/quote]
In your made up story, the man has just spent $500 more on one pebble than the other, all he's 'bestowed' upon it is more money, not specialness. God knows why he did it, other that to suit your story.

John, if you're going to use an analogy to support your argument, it has to actually work and make sense in terms of the argument, not just fit in with what you're saying. :roll: Your TAG watch analogy didn't work; I explained why (completely different manufacturers, design, components, market, etc., unlike MiM/A Fenders). The pebbles don't work any better at explaining why you said "MiMs will never be as special as a MIA" - other than if you think cost is the only thing that makes something 'special'.... Am I understanding your argument John?

Well, perhaps that works for you, but to me it's BS. This summer I went out to buy a MiA Strat, but came home without one: What I'd played certainly wasn't special enough for the price, and almost put me off buying another Fender. By chance, a few weeks later I found a MiM that was special, and discounted too. It's the cheapest guitar I've bought since the 80s, and if you take inflation into account, it may be the cheapest I've bought since the 70s - yet it plays beautifully & sustains better than any Strat I've ever played. It's certainly special to me, and I'd say the price was pretty special too.

I'm sorry for you if you can only find things to be special if they cost a lot. Must make life expensive... Oh well.


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Post subject: Re: Fender American Standard vs Fender Standard (MIM) Strat
Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:31 pm
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Just because you choose not to understand an anology doesn't necessarily make it a bad analogy. The fact that you weren't able to slew it by introducing random variables is perhaps a step forward.

Given that there is no actual measurement of specialness the price that someone is willing to pay is a reasonable indication of specialness to them. You make a value judgement at a time of purchase as to whether the item you are considering buying is sufficiently special, in your opinion, to purchase that item, at that price, over something else.

For what ever reason you didn't like the MIA you tried based on the price. It doesn't necessarily mean the guitar you bought was better, it is just that it was sufficiently special for you to hand over a quantifiable sum of money.

If someone decides to buy an MiA they have made a value judgement and consider it worthy of the price. Considering the majority of MIAs are more expensive than MiMs, those that have both, by paying more for one over the other (and ignoring mothers last breath etc etc etc) have decided the MIA is worthy of the extra cost. By paying more they have quantified an increased degree of specialness to them.

A thing doesn't have to be expensive to be special. However, if you buy another example of the thing (ignoring inflation, mothers last breath etc etc etc) if you choose to pay more for the second example this would suggest you consider it to be more meritus of the extra cost i.e. more special.

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Post subject: Re: Fender American Standard vs Fender Standard (MIM) Strat
Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2015 5:29 pm
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John Sims wrote:
Just because you choose not to understand an anology doesn't necessarily make it a bad analogy.


John, I understood you’re watch analogy, but it simply didn’t work: I explained why twice, but instead of responding, you made up some nonsense about expensive pebbles. Do you expect me to waste time on that? You’re making this stuff up to support your claim that MiAs are more ‘special’ than MiMs. You appear to be arguing that this is because they cost more, and anything that costs more must be more special, because specialness & price are directly linked.

I might as well argue that, if cost & specialness are linked in the way you suggest, then all the most ‘special moments’ in your life will have been spent with people you paid by the hour, rather than with loved ones (who give you their time free of charge). Are all your ‘special’ moments spent with dentists and plumbers? See, you’re not the only one who can come up with pointless analogies. Can we get back to Strats & forget pebbles & watches?

John Sims wrote:
Given that there is no actual measurement of specialness the price that someone is willing to pay is a reasonable indication of specialness to them.


Nope, same mistake! Doesn’t work reliably, (see above). Obvious guitar example: You could blow a fortune on a PRS, and then find it spends more time looking pretty hanging on your wall, while your cheap old Fender gets played. I’d say the expensive one was NOT the most special in that situation, even if it's pretty & expensive.

John Sims wrote:
For what ever reason you didn't like the MIA you tried based on the price. It doesn't necessarily mean the guitar you bought was better, it is just that it was sufficiently special for you to hand over a quantifiable sum of money.


Quantifiable sum of money? Do you mean the price?? Look, based on my brief time in a store (to be fair, not the best conditions), IMO the MiM was better, regardless of price: I actually wanted to own it, I didn’t want to own the MiA. Like I said, it almost put me off buying another Fender. (But note, that’s not the same as saying MiM’s are better than MiAs - the sample size of 2 is way too small).

John Sims wrote:
A thing doesn't have to be expensive to be special.


Hallelujah! You’ve seen the light & agreed with my point. After all, if a dealer told you Fender’s prices had just quadrupled, without any change in the guitars, would you be overjoyed to discover they’re four times more special? I suspect not. Price, value & ‘specialness’ may be connected, but often only loosely connected, and sometimes not at all.

When ‘specialness’ is closely connected to price, it may just be due to cognitive dissonance. That might explain why it’s so difficult for you to clarify your claim that a MiA is ‘more special’, apart from the fact it just costs a lot more. In which case you could've said "MiMs will never be as expensive as a MIA"


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Post subject: Re: Fender American Standard vs Fender Standard (MIM) Strat
Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:34 pm
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You didn't like pebble? Substitute the word "pebble" for "guitar".

The watch analogy worked fine in its original form until you took it upon yourself to deliberately corupt the meaning by introducing a string of variables; mothers last breath etc. etc. Two different guitars, two different watches.

This has become a completely circular argument on which we obviously aren't going to agree; and quoting individual sentences out of context isn't going to get us any closer.

I find a number of your assumptions and comments to be insulting and won't be entertaining you further.

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Post subject: Re: Fender American Standard vs Fender Standard (MIM) Strat
Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:30 am
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Blimey - all getting a bit too heavy for me!

Personally, I don't doubt MIMs are good guitars, but for me a Fender must always be American. I'm quite happy to pay US workers more to make it, then pay more in £ than you pay in $, just because of the country I live in.

In fact, it may all be down to the fact I DON'T live in America. When I was a nipper and first saw a Strat (late 50's) I loved it then and I love it now. I always aspired to the genuine article because many of my musical heroes played one. Buddy, Hank, Jimi etc played US Strats, and I was (and still am) inspired by that fact. A MIM just wouldn't make me feel as good as a MIA, regardless of how good a MIM is. If you DO live in America, there's perhaps nothing special about a MIA...?

Call me daft if you like, I don't mind! Cheers - Peter.


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Post subject: Re: Fender American Standard vs Fender Standard (MIM) Strat
Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 10:52 am
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Peter S wrote:
Blimey - all getting a bit too heavy for me!

Personally, I don't doubt MIMs are good guitars, but for me a Fender must always be American. I'm quite happy to pay US workers more to make it, then pay more in £ than you pay in $, just because of the country I live in.

In fact, it may all be down to the fact I DON'T live in America. When I was a nipper and first saw a Strat (late 50's) I loved it then and I love it now. I always aspired to the genuine article because many of my musical heroes played one. Buddy, Hank, Jimi etc played US Strats, and I was (and still am) inspired by that fact. A MIM just wouldn't make me feel as good as a MIA, regardless of how good a MIM is. If you DO live in America, there's perhaps nothing special about a MIA...?

Call me daft if you like, I don't mind! Cheers - Peter.

Peter, if you are daft, so am I. I'm sure the MIM's are great and I have no doubt they are the best deal around dollar for dollar. My first real guitar was a 1966 3 color sunburst, rosewood fingerboard, USA made Stratocaster. There was only one Fender Stratocaster model then. You could get a Jaguar, Jazzmaster, Telecaster or some other Fender. I wanted a Stratocaster. I am glad that Fender stayed around and I was able to replace that old guitar with a MIA Strat. For me, it's mostly sentimental. On the other hand it simply seems superior when I compared it to the MIM's and other Strat copies in my local music store.

Cheers :wink:


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Post subject: Re: Fender American Standard vs Fender Standard (MIM) Strat
Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 3:54 pm
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John Sims wrote:
The watch analogy worked fine in its original form until you took it upon yourself to deliberately corupt the meaning by introducing a string of variables; mothers last breath etc. etc. Two different guitars, two different watches.


I didn't 'corrupt' anything, I simply pointed out why the analogy didn't work. The variables were there already:

Two different guitars: But from the same manufacturer, to the same design, with broadly similar materials and methods of construction, given the same brand and model names, sold at the same outlets, and even selling to the same market (many people own both).

Two different watches: From very different manufacturers with very different brand profiles, made to completely different designs, from different materials, to different standards & tolerances, selling in different outlets to totally different markets.

This is why it's a useless analogy.

Since your post, several people have given a reason why they find MiAs special: They're made on American soil. The fundamental here is that something like this can make you feel something is special (which is important, how you feel is not a trivial thing), but it doesn't actually make the object special - something you implied & I questioned. As a brief example; if you discover the dealer ripped you off & the 'Made in the USA' label is a fake, it stops being special. But a guitar that sustains forever because it happens to have been made from an amazing bit of wood... that's special.

Now, if you don't believe that myth, any guitar can be special, and none is special merely due to it's place of origin. The trouble is, comments like yours just build the myth, and I've heard so many of them; 'only US Strats are real/genuine/authentic', or 'you haven't got a real Strat until you've bought an American one', and 'MiMs will never be as special as a MIA'. If you want to believe that hype, that's fine, so be it, but if you're going to spread it...


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Post subject: Re: Fender American Standard vs Fender Standard (MIM) Strat
Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 7:01 pm
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Bigsby wrote:

Two different watches: From very different manufacturers with very different brand profiles, made to completely different designs, from different materials, to different standards & tolerances, selling in different outlets to totally different markets.....


Irrelevant. They are both watches.

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Post subject: Re: Fender American Standard vs Fender Standard (MIM) Strat
Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:04 pm
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Peter S wrote:
Fender must always be American. I'm quite happy to pay US workers more to make it

You do know that a substantial part of the Fender workers in Corona, USA, are Mexican? On the factory floor, you'll probably be better understood if you speak Spanish.

The two factories are less than a four hour drive from each other, which is not considered huge by North American standards. Shipments between the two occur regularly. It's less than the distance between the US factory and the US headquarters in Arizona.

Differences in guitars from the two sister plants is going to more about the design than the workmanship. You may get a better pickup in a USA model than a MIA, for example. But the law of diminishing returns apply - you pay more and more for less and less improvements as you scale up from Squier -> Fender (CH) -> Fender (KR) -> Fender (JP) -> Fender (MX) -> Fender (US) -> Fender (CS, Teambuilt) -> Fender (CS, Masterbuilt). At which point you want to stop is up to you.


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Post subject: Re: Fender American Standard vs Fender Standard (MIM) Strat
Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:15 am
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arth1 wrote:

... you pay more and more for less and less improvements as you scale up from Squier -> Fender (CH) -> Fender (KR) -> Fender (JP) -> Fender (MX) -> Fender (US) -> Fender (CS, Teambuilt) -> Fender (CS, Masterbuilt). At which point you want to stop is up to you.


I agree entirely. And this is true of any aspirational purchase; cars, houses, (dare I say) watches. Because the Custom Shop guitars are MIA there is a halo effect. If they moved CS to Mexico this would evaporate to an extent.

Fender (to the most part) do enough to ensure there are physical differences with the MIAs; PUPS, trems, rolled necks, cleaning the edge of the pickguard, cases, better case candy, better string trees, (aledgedly) better timber selection, better trust rods, bone nuts, etc.

Not everyone has the opportunity to try before they buy. if buying a MIM there could be a nagging doubt "This is very nice but would I like a MIA more?" Buy a MIA you are buying, potentially, the better product so don't have that niggle.

Buying an American Special you are perhaps closer to paying for the badge alone although there are still physical differences. But then the are MiMs which are more expensive than American Specials so you would expect these MiMs to be better guitars.

If you already have a number of guitars (covering different configurations) you don't "need" another guitar. You are then looking at whether a MIA would give you a better guitar. Or, because the very best Strats (CS Masterbuilt) are MIA, you want a MIA because that would be a nice thing to have.

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Post subject: Re: Fender American Standard vs Fender Standard (MIM) Strat
Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2015 3:47 am
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"You do know that a substantial part of the Fender workers in Corona, USA, are Mexican?"

It has always seemed to me, arth1, that the vast majority of Americans are 'foreign'! Abigail Ybarra doesn't sound very 'English', yet is apparently highly regarded! To take your argument to its logical conclusion, US Fenders would have to be made entirely by the American Indians!

No, we'll have to agree to disagree on this (which is fine). I don't know why anyone would get steamed up about the subject, it's just a matter of opinion! For me, it's a feeling; nothing to do with money. When I strap on a US Strat I'm still inspired, even after all these years.

If anyone else is equally inspired by a non-US Strat, great! Wasn't Jeff Healey's main squeeze a Squier (albeit the $@! version)? Incredible live player - sadly missed. Sorry, I've digressed a little...!

When I was a potless kid with a Dallas Arbeiter solid body (try finding them on Google!), fair enough, I'd have jumped at anything half as good as a MIM Strat (although, as John says, there wasn't the choice then), but it wouldn't have inspired me like the 70's US one I was eventually able to afford.

Cheers - Peter.


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Post subject: Re: Fender American Standard vs Fender Standard (MIM) Strat
Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2015 5:22 am
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My mention of my first electric sparked yet another internet search! Not sure the link is the exact guitar but may well be. I seem to recall the 'Dallas' logo was a transfer, not a plate. And I think it was completely red, not with the blackburst effect.

I also recall the bridge moved around like a skateboard, and you could drive a bus under the strings!

https://www.gbase.com/gear/fenton-weill-dallas-1961-red


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