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Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:16 am
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This instrument is gonna have so much mojo in it when it's completed that it will be priceless!

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Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:29 am
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nikininja wrote:
I was thinking. Would it work to soak the wood then use a regular clothes iron?.

tagg wrote:
I wonder if you could use a steamer / cleaning wand to help get the wood soft enough to bend? Are you glueing the top down now or just shaping it at this point?

Fellas, your brains are working better than mine was yesterday.

Matter o' fact, if you look in that last photo of the top clamped to the body you can see the foot of an ironing board. I did briefly toy with the idea of using a steam iron, but I couldn't quite see how to bend and steam at the same time.

Regarding the steaming wand. tagg, you probably missed a thread a few months ago where I was describing how a friend of mine who is a boat builder steam bends big timbers to make boat ribs. In short, he does pretty much what you suggest.

He builds a box that can be sealed all around the size of the timber to be steamed but not much bigger. The wood goes into it and he feeds in a hose from a steam source - he uses one of those wallpaper strippers as a steam generator. The box fills with steam closely confined around the timber to be bent. After about 15 or 20 minutes (I think he said) he breaks open the box and pulls out the timber using thick gloves - it is very hot. At this stage he says even a big beam can be bent just by muscle power - it is then a mad rush to get it clamped into place, because it is cooling and firming up all the time.

So lying in bed last night I turned all that over in my mind and realised a much better way than my saucepan method of getting the steam where I wanted on that top and not where I didn't. Here's a pic:
Image

That's just a regular piece of plastic pipe into which I've cut two different lengthed slots the right width to feed the corner of a guitar top through. The pipe is a standard size so it will be easy to use plumbing joining parts to hook it up to a hose running from a source of steam. I could block up the far end and then the steam will be closely confined around the bit of the top I want to bend, while not softening the rest of the wood (which was a problem with my makeshift method yesterday).

Tidy, huh? I'm sure I can refine that, but in essence I think it might be a nice way of doing what I was struggling with before. In fact, I'm kind of curious to give it a go some time...

Meanwhile:
nikininja wrote:
I'm strongly considering abusing something else for him to put right.

Now you are talking my language! :D

Anyway: did yesterday's desperate measures work? More later...

Cheers - C


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Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 3:16 pm
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Hey, Ceri! I hope you have time to play from all that work and thinking!
Relax! We'll be here waiting!

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Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 4:47 pm
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Ceri wrote:
nikininja wrote:
I'm strongly considering abusing something else for him to put right.

Now you are talking my language! :D


Fancy making some very tasty speaker cabs? I may get that torres amp finished next year. Regardless I reckon theres money in extension cabs of unusual/custom dimensions. A 2x10+1x12 open backed oak cab stained surf green anyone? Could even make custom head enclosures to match, then the world really would open up.

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Last edited by nikininja on Tue Dec 15, 2009 5:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 5:22 pm
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I've been thing about making my DRRI into a 2 x 12. Maybe making it out of dyed maple. Or maybe a custom DRRI head and 1 x 12 cab... Maybe I should google it. I wonder if someone has done this before? I'm sure they have...

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Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 6:19 pm
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[Tuesday evening]

OK, cut to the chase - unconventional methodology, but it worked:
Image

That's the front, and here is the underside. The dark marks are where I was starting to bruise the wood trying unsuccessfully to bend it round the bending iron, which was why I gave up and found other means of steaming it:
Image

Hard to get my photos to show it clearly, but that really seems to have come off OK. Quite pleased - and relieved. I thought this might turn out to be the crash and burn bit of the thread...!!!

Before gluing that top onto the bod we just need to route a cavity for the pickup wires to run through. This is my chunkiest router cutter, with a copy collar on the top. It will run along the plywood stacked beside it to make a straight channel:
Image

Incidentally, that photo shows the problems with copy routing. At the start of the cut that collar is way above the surface of the work and so the template has to be also. And that indicates the limitations of the thin Perspex templates you can buy from the likes of Stewart-MacDonald for pickup cavities, necks pockets and such. Each time the router descends a little way into the wood the template has to descend too. And each time you reposition it you'd better do so absolutely perfectly or the work will be ruined. Maximum opportunity for error.

That's why I make my own templates out of thick ply wood. Much easier to use. We'll be seeing a lot more of my templates later:
Image

Here's the wire channel done. Immediately I feel I could have made it narrower, but what the heck:
Image

And so to the gluing and clamping. Effective clamping is such a major part of this type of work:
Image

Though I did some dry runs I still ran into difficulties clamping the wood down absolutely tight all over the forearm contour. While bending the steamed wood I used my wooden carpenter's clamps with the jaws lined with neoprene so that they wouldn't slip on the angled surface, and it seemed to work. However, once the glue was on I just couldn't get them to grip tight enough to really clamp the wood down firmly - they kept slipping backwards and losing pressure. So I had to quickly revert to G-cramps lined with cork for grip, instead:
Image

You can see in the next pick that I'm screwing down onto a caul which itself is lined on the bottom with cork. But even my G-cramps with wine bottle cork cushions kept slipping off the top. So I quickly nailed in some panel pins as you see here to keep them in place:
Image

I used a body template on the back of the guitar, because it is impossible to get G-cramps or spool clamps to grip successfully through the tummy contour otherwise:
Image

I thought I'd made an ample number of spool clamps, but in the end I used every single one of them - very good for screwing the top down at every possible point:
Image

Even the little ones got used: they turned out to be very handy for fitting in tight spots where the larger ones wouldn't go:
Image

To weight down the middle of the top I tried several options and finally couldn't find anything that put pressure exactly where I wanted it better than bottles of water. A good weight in a small area.

Lastly, I just liked this shot. Kinda surreal looking construction seen against the light like that:
Image

And yet again on this project it is now a case of waiting overnight for the glue to dry. We'll see if it has all joined up successfully tomorrow. Oh the drama of it all...! :lol:

Cheers guys - C


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Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 6:59 pm
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Did you really fill in the router jig hole?
Image


So whats the verdict on that body? Laminate with how many pieces underneath?

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Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 7:01 pm
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Hey Niki you can feel free to knock around your Marshall head and send it to me to fix up :wink: :wink: :wink:

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Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 7:15 pm
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That could be happening a lot quicker than expected mate. Theres no time off for weather though. Were suffering a cold snap at the moment and the Blue Badger here is off out in all weathers battling against the odds and the extent of my destruction. Hey I'm allowed into Canada, I may deliver it in person with a wrecked V copy to match.

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Completely removed from this topic. Can I ask your opinions of modern Traynors. I was out to play earlier and got to use one. Now the guy who got me intrested in guitars had a old 70's traynor. It was a beast, a utter monster. It weighed about the same as st Pauls cathedral and could punch a 12" round hole in a wall 50ft away just on the strength of the mid frequencies. The one I played earlier was a very pale shadow of that old amp. Squashy bass, undefined mids. It had a very nice treble though.

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Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 7:52 pm
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I have a 70's Traynor in storage, I love that amp. But It is really really loud. I haven't really played around with any modern ones lately. But i am in need of some new strings, so I will try to get around to the shop in the next couple days, and try a few out.

Traynor(and Yorkville also,) and Canada's biggest guitar store chain (Long and McQuade,) have ownership in common.Peter Traynor was the repair tech at the original long and McQuade store in Toronto way back when. i am not sure if the chain out and out owns them now, but pretty much every store in their chain has the entire array of their lineup.

by the way did you know that Traynor had the first production amplifier with a master volume?

By the way, what does cold snap mean where you are? we've been hovering between -36C(-33F) to -40C(also -40F, approximately,) (and windchill to make it colder,) for a while. Also we have had a ton of snow all across Canada already this year. I have a couple feet on the deck where i have to paint.--edit: I should add we warmed up today, it is actually only -6(-21F,) right now, so like 30 degrees warmer in one day--

To get even further off topic, how hard are old Park heads to find where you are? The best 'Marshall' head I have ever had the pleasure to play through was a bright red Park. :wink:

apologies to ceri for going on a tangent(probably not even a tangent so much as just wildly off topic!!

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Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 8:19 pm
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Ceri your idea with the improvised pvc steamer is awesome! I love it. Bet it works well too.

Clamping/glueing the top down: Could you have put a couple long flat pieces of wood across the top but under the clamps at each side that would've put pressure across a large part of the middle surface? Just thinking about it while reading and looking at your pictures.

I look forward to checking in on your progress everyday when I get home from work and seeing the pictures of the project.

Thank you!


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Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 9:38 pm
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nikininja wrote:
Shredd

I'd wait till March at least before expecting a barbecue picture. I bet its bloody freezing down in the southwest of England at the moment. I dunno what that potion he had in that mug was though. Its quite unnerving.

Image

Far too near Cornwall and tales of witches for me to ever chance tasting it.

I completely agree with you. Anyone with an apprenticeship and a workshop full of specialist tools could do this. The whole ethos of one mans battle against the destruction wreaked by another, in his quest to make a perfect guitar. Adds a flavour to this that professional builders just cant muster.


I've been wondering about the mug too! Glue?

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Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:34 pm
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stagemasterplayer wrote:
nikininja wrote:
Shredd

I'd wait till March at least before expecting a barbecue picture. I bet its bloody freezing down in the southwest of England at the moment. I dunno what that potion he had in that mug was though. Its quite unnerving.

Image

Far too near Cornwall and tales of witches for me to ever chance tasting it.

I completely agree with you. Anyone with an apprenticeship and a workshop full of specialist tools could do this. The whole ethos of one mans battle against the destruction wreaked by another, in his quest to make a perfect guitar. Adds a flavour to this that professional builders just cant muster.


I've been wondering about the mug too! Glue?
It kinda looks like it's filled with half coffee and half what the mug itself advertises!!! :shock: :wink: 8)

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Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 3:23 am
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Twelvebar wrote:
Apologies to ceri for going on a tangent(probably not even a tangent so much as just wildly off topic!!

Never a problem. Carry on.
Twelvebar wrote:
By the way, what does cold snap mean where you are? we've been hovering between -36C(-33F) to -40C(also -40F, approximately,) (and windchill to make it colder,) for a while.

-36 to -40C? Uh-hu...

Down in London we are suffering this "cold snap" of which Nick spoke. This morning I was out with a cup of tea wandering around the garden in my nightshirt. After ten minutes that was too much and I came in. Later I may even pull on a sweater. That's our cold snap.

Mind you, Nick gets the icy winds blowing in across the North Sea from Siberia. So I'm sure what he's going through is different...

stagemasterplayer wrote:
I've been wondering about the mug too! Glue?

Twelvebar wrote:
It kinda looks like it's filled with half coffee and half what the mug itself advertises!!! :shock: :wink: 8)

Impudent rascals! The answer to this question has been given a page or two back. Don't like to add to landfill - but that low cholesterol coffee creamer qualified as "try once then discard".

I can't pretend it tasted any better than it looked. How much I'm now wishing I hadn't done that particular experiment in public... :lol:

tagg wrote:
Ceri your idea with the improvised pvc steamer is awesome! I love it. Bet it works well too.

Clamping/glueing the top down: Could you have put a couple long flat pieces of wood across the top but under the clamps at each side that would've put pressure across a large part of the middle surface? Just thinking about it while reading and looking at your pictures.

Hi tagg: of course I haven't tried it yet (that's another whole project) but I think that pipe-steamer idea may be a good one. I wish I'd thought of it a day or two earlier! :roll:

Regarding the clamping: what the big boys do is put a pile of bodies with tops on into big presses and apply a lot of pressure. Photos and video of that to be found on the net. But how they do drop tops in a production environment I don't know. Never found information on that - and I'd be very interested if anyone can turn something up.

I did consider cutting the forearm contour off a body template (like the one you see underneath the body in the glue-up pix) and using that as an all-over caul for the top, with the forearm contour done as a separate section. But somehow being able to adjust the pressure exactly how you want in each spot is preferable. With the unknown quantity of the contour I felt I wanted that kind of maximum control.

It is the luthier approved method - which is why spool clamps were invented, I guess. I don't think there's hard and fast rules, but at any rate this way worked OK.

Or it seemed to. But we'll pull all those clamps off and take a look - later...

Cheers - C


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Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 4:13 am
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Well it's 6 AM. in Maryland and Ceri I enjoyed My morning read. This project is looking great and a joy to follow!!!!

Ceri stay away from Low Fat Creamer, there something even wrong with the sound of that.

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