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Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 8:25 am
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Rhumba wrote:
Woah man!! Ceri, I've spent the last two days going through this thread, from page one , to here.
It has been an extraordinary journey and a lesson in craft, technique, skill, nous and patience.
In short; Mind blowing.
I think you have done a fantastic job and I wish I had caught this project from the start and taken the ride along with all the other guys in 'real time' as it were.
I'll be there next time, if you do any more projects.
You've amazed me man, you are the dude.
Wow!! Cool job. 8)


As I said in Ceri's congratulatory 7000 post thread in the lounge this thread truly is the best ever posted here.

Fascinating!


CC

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Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 8:49 am
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Ceri wrote:

I believe I heard Fender had extended the rolled edges from the US line over to Mexican-made guitars as well. Is that right, does anyone know?



I have been watching in amazement since my last post. Brilliant work Ceri, really a great piece of art.

I looked carefully for the first time at the edges of my 2008 MIM Std. Strat. It has rolled edges, and I haven't had it long enough to do it myself. So there you go, it appears that MIM guitars have rolled edges too.

Can't wait to see what's next.

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Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 2:45 pm
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Hi fellas: lots of matters arising and then plenty of pix!

First, thank you all - as always!!! :oops:

Next, very nice to see Rhumba and CC over in this neck of the woods. Cheers guys, and really - thank you too!

Next:
Chicagoblue wrote:
Ceri; with all the fine work you have been doing and then shooting photos with one hand, it occurs to me that it may be time to get yourself a tri-pod. Being the selfish leech I am and wanting to see how it's done with "both hands", I think that it may give you a little relief as you document this whole process.

Just use that delayed timer to shoot the photo and wella, look Ma, Both hands !

Matter o' fact I do have a tripod. Also, not only do these cameras all sport timers, one of them even has a little remote control unit you can use to photograph yourself from far away. Now if only I could bring myself to bother to use any of that stuff...

I did try to pull my thumb out and do halfway adequate photos for the "finished" stage of a previous build thread:
Image

Like this:
Image

But honestly, I'm fooling nobody that I'm any sort of photographer, and for the day-to-day pix you just can't imagine how much time I already spend taking the photos, transfering to computer, editing them, discarding the hundreds of total duds, and the very tedious process of uploading to Photobucket. I just can't start adding tripod setups, lighting and the like to that as well - I'll never get any work done at all!!!! :lol:

Any of the proper photographers round here who'd like to volunteer are more than welcome to come and handle the snappy business for me. There's plenty of beer in it for 'em... :wink: :D

Next:
Xhefri wrote:
yeppers, I have a few 88-93 Strats that are new old stock and they have finish on top the frets. Very light, but you can especially see it down around the 12th fret and beyond, where the finish is yellowing. On one of my guitars you see the finish flaking off on parts of the fret. More common on the edges (sometimes fairly thick) but some times on the top too. I do not know if it was one of those things were production was done just a little too fast, or what. but one thing I always know, when I see finish on the frets I know the guitar has not been played hardly at all! ( I will try to take some close up snaps).

Well, I don't for one second dispute anything people are saying. But I must admit this totally bewilders me.

First fret job I ever did I got a little blemish on my nicely resprayed fingerboard and had to do a couple more coats after the fret dressing was already finished. So that meant I had lacquer on top of the frets as well as the sides. I should have scraped it off the tops but in my youthful ignorance just strung the guitar up and started playing. For a couple of days I had irritating areas where my strings immediately wore through the lacquer in places and not in others, but it didn't take long for all of that top lacquer to disappear from the playing surface, save for on the bass string positions on the upper frets. That I finally had to address as I should have in the first place.

What I'm saying is even if people indeed are taking delivery of new Fenders with lacquer on top of the the frets they are just not going to stay that way for at all long. Assuming the guitar gets played any.

I wonder, has anyone asked Mike Eldred about Fender's process and views on this subject? Be nice to have some thoughts from the horse's mouth (so to speak - that sort of sounds rude, doesn't it? Oops: wasn't meant to... :) ).

OK, half an hour of Photobucket uploading and then I'll be back with tonight's episode proper...

Shortly - C


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Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:23 pm
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I can't wait for the next episode Ceri, I keep checking in here now, I'm not a Strat owner so I'm rarely over here. I was even telling the band about this thread on our first smoke break at the studio yesterday. I am loving it!

Thank you for the knowledge!

CC

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Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 5:06 pm
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Okely-dokely: shall we carve a neck? This bit's fun (at this end, anyhow).

Partially visible in a couple of recent photos, I have marked up the back of the neck to help with shaping it. A little hard to see in this pic, I know:
Image

Details help. Here's the skinny end with some shaping lines and also an indication of where the first fret lies:
Image

And here's the heel, again with the basic curve drawn in and the twelfth fret marked:
Image

Again a bit hard to see, but this is important. This is the line we shall carve the back of the neck to, from first to twelfth fret:
Image

Those first and twelfth fret positions are key, because they set up two of the crucial constraints of the finished neck. We can decide what we want the thickness of the neck front-to-back to be at those positions and that will control a big part of how it feels in the hand when it's all finished.

Here's some useful stats on several factory guitar necks in my possession. The first measurement is the thickness at the first fret, the second is at the twelfth:

Squier Strat - 20.65mm (0.813") - 23.40 (0.921)

MIJ Strat - 21.95 (0.864) - 25.40 (1.0)

MIA Strat - 20.90 (0.823) - 25.33 (0.997)

MIK Tele - 22.16 (0.872) - 22.88 (0.9)

Les Paul - 21.39 (0.842) - 24.81 (0.977)

Yamaha CPX - 21.02 (0.827) - 22.44 (0.883) (at the tenth fret)

I have absolutely no particular fave amongst any of those necks. I do find the Tele particularly chunky in an exciting manly way and the MIA Strat especially comfortable for smooth quick (-ish) passagework. But my hand adapts almost instantly to each of these necks, so that indicates that to my hands at least all the obsessiveness that goes on about these dimensions in guitar magazines is a little overwrought.

Much more significant to me are that the MIJ Strat has a soft but distinct V to its shape, and the MIA Strat is a rather fast C-shape. Perhaps most striking are the dimensions of that Korean Tele neck. Not only is the carve very much of the baseball bat type but you'll notice that it tapers barely at all from first to twelfth fret. And yet it is just as easy to play as the slim MIA Strat.

What conclusions to draw? Well, I shall be starting out to carve the neck to about 22.5 mm at the first fret, 25.5 at the twelfth. Then I shall spend plenty of time handling the neck and also several of my others and then decide how much further back to take it from there.

That's a long-winded process. If I was carving necks all day every day I could no doubt go very fast to the finished profile of choice. But since I don't you will need to watch with patience while I take my time with it! :D

Here's some tools I'll be using:
Image

This is total overkill. Frankly, we could perfectly well do the entire thing with a file and some sandpaper. But why cramp ourselves if we don't need to?

For those as don't know 'em. To left you see three files/rasps, each with different sized teeth and profiles. Beneath them is a steel profile gauge. That's very handy and we'll get to that tomorrow. Right of that are two surforms, a long round one and a classic flat palm one. Above that is my tasty little block plane, of which more in a moment. Above that is a spoke-shave and above that a tool some might not know, an English pattern draw knife.

Sometimes also known as a London pattern draw knife, it is distinguished from other variations such as a Swedish pattern draw knife and a French/Continental pattern draw knife. They are all variations on a theme with different arrangements of blade and handles - but they all work on a similar principle. Excellent for fast removal of stock along things like shafts of tool handles, chair legs and such. In expert hands (which mine are not) very fine accurate work is possible. I'm going to use it much more sparingly...

Topmost in the pic is my "luthier's" digital calipers. Very useful for getting the neck to the right thickness.

So. First we find a comfortable way to hold the neck. In fact, I spend most of the time holding it with one hand and working on it with the other, turning it around and about all the while. However, for using two-handed tools we need to fix it securely, and these cork lined cam-clamps are nice for that, used in conjunction with the ubiquitous cork placemats:
Image

Off we go. First thing is to bring the neck to the right thickness (or close) at the first and twelfth fret positions:
Image

I'm doing this briskly with the round surform and a rasp with big teeth. We ain't being elegant here, just removing stock:
Image

And another angle:
Image

Constant checking with the calipers - at this point I am bringing those positions to about 23 mm at the first fret, 26 at the twelfth:
Image

And here we are with that done:
Image

Some people would have cut the angle of the back of the neck earlier on in the build on the bandsaw. Because of my different working process I am doing it now and I find my little block plane especially useful for this. A block plane has the blade set at an unusually low angle. That is really intended for working across the grain at the ends of planks and blocks, but it happens to work very nicely in this situation too, where we have to plane at an angle across the neck - we can't run straight up and down the neck because of the headstock at one end and the raised heel at the other:
Image

Another angle:
Image

Intermission.

Bad news / good news. At this point I have to get on a train on yet more of my never-ending travels. However, this time I can take my neck and a few tools with me, and have others waiting at the other end. So, pack up the neck in its latest travelling suit, "get me to the station and put me on a train":
Image

...And a few hours later here we are at a different location. Let's continue. :D

I have to apologise for not being able to show you stock removal using the English pattern draw knife. Those pics got lost somewhere en route - so consider it done. Next, we move on to the spoke-shave. I have been amused to use a few of my grandfather's tools during this thread, but I don't think I'll bother with this one:
Image

I suspect that might have been his grandfather's before him! Still, if you look in Martin Oakham's book Build Your Own Electric Guitar you can see him use a traditional spoke-shave just like that one to carve a neck. Wild!

I shall use my modern one. Important to have blades as sharp as possible:
Image

Even so, my spoke-shave is quite a cheap one and you really notice that on a job like this. I have been meaning for ages to buy a really good quality spoke-shave but they are quite astonishingly expensive for what they are and somehow I never get round to it...

I think this photo was just prior to starting with the spoke-shave, so you can see the neck with the amount of stock I removed with the draw knife:
Image

The (provisional) thickness at first and twelfth frets is set, and so is the line of the back of the neck. Martin Oakham calls those the three constraints within which the neck is carved. Actually, I'd suggest the bass and treble sides are two more constraints, making five all together.

Whatever: the point is that having established these crucial positions the rest of the neck carve is just a matter of removing stock to join them all up. More or less...

I'm slightly losing track (long day) but I think the next two pics show shaping beginning to happen with the spoke-shave:
Image

And:
Image

Then, possibly sooner than really necessary, I moved on to the palm held surform:
Image

More:
Image

And finally for today:
Image

That's it for now. As daylight disappears the rough shaping is done - we'll get more careful and fancy tomorrow.

Ta-ta - C


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Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 5:32 pm
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Ceri wrote:
Above that is a spoke-shave and above that a tool some might not know, an English pattern draw knife.
oh cool! A new tool to me! can't wait to see!

Ceri wrote:
"get me to the station and put me on a train":

Ta-ta - C
Hurry, Hurry, Hurry, before we go insane!!

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Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 6:01 pm
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Twelvebar wrote:
Ceri wrote:
"get me to the station and put me on a train":

Ta-ta - C
Hurry, Hurry, Hurry, before we go insane!!


The sedation was yesterday.

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Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 6:24 pm
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nikininja wrote:
Twelvebar wrote:
Ceri wrote:
"get me to the station and put me on a train":

Ta-ta - C
Hurry, Hurry, Hurry, before we go insane!!


The sedation was yesterday.
Well hopefully he'll wait until he can control his fingers, and control his brain, before working with sharp tools again. :wink:

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Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 6:43 pm
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Yeah I saw them tools, I just dont want a labotomy off him. Teenage or otherwise.

2:45am here. Time for shock treatment. At 70 watts.

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Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 4:13 pm
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'Evening all. For those who could do with a lot less words and more pictures, this is the post for you! For those who think there's better things to do in life than watch wood get carved very small amounts at a time - leave now.

Last night as the sun was setting we got to here:
Image

Now the steel profile guide comes in useful. This is the profile at the first fret of the back of a nice WD Music Strat-type neck I have to hand where I am located just now (for the Britons watching I'm currently down at my place in Devon, on the bottom edge of Dartmoor...):
Image

And this is the profile of the Ceri neck I'm working on:
Image

As you can see, so far mine is much deeper and also a lot squarer. In fact, it's almost a square with rounded corners. A whole lotta work to do.

Here's the neck with a fair bit of time spent with the files and sandpaper, though you can see a big bulge I haven't got to yet. Essentially, all this work will turn out to be wasted effort - I shouldn't be messing with those files yet. But just to track the progress:
Image

Up the heel end things look like this. Some extra working lines have appeared and a bit of shaping as a result:
Image

And at the nut I've thrown away plenty of time making the carve nice and smooth, when I haven't actually got the shape right yet:
Image

Beginning to be quite pleasing to the eye:
Image

Which, after a pause for refreshment, I realised was silly. We need to work on the basic shape a lot more. I put down the files and went back to the surform to take more stock off - we need to reduce the "shoulders" of the curve:
Image

From a slightly different angle:
Image

And closer in. This is what the surform does:
Image

Now it is starting to look a bit rounder along its length:
Image

At this point I again felt the urge to tidy it up with files, so that I could see where I'd got to:
Image

To be fair, it is really beginning to look like a guitar neck, isn't it?:
Image

Another look at the heel. In classical architecture those triangular sections where a square shape turns into a round one are called "squinches". Good word, huh? (Like when you put a round dome on a square room.) My working lines help to see what's going on - and what isn't:
Image

Problem is, while I'm fannying around making the surface nice I still haven't got the basic profile right yet. Here's another look at the profile guide. First the S-type reference neck, at the first fret:
Image

And here's my neck, also at the first fret:
Image

Better than before, but still far, far too square. At this point I decided to get serious. A masterbuilder who does this stuff all the time would probably cut straight to this without all the messing about first. But an occasional home-builder like me has to feel his way - that's my excuse:
Image

I did that on both sides, and the same at the nut end. Then I reshaped both ends into pleasing curves again. My principle is to get either end right and then remove stock all the way in between to join the two ends up, using them as the guide.

After a lot more work, here's the latest manifestation of the nut end:
Image

Another check with the profile guide says that at last we're getting closer:
Image

That profile guide is not the be-all-and-end-all. For example, it becomes less and less accurate the closer the shape you're applying it to runs to the vertical. Another visual aid is to draw pencil lines around the neck at fixed points (first and twelfth frets). They help you to eyeball how the carve is working:
Image

And at the twelfth fret:
Image

The pencil hatching marks indicate where there is material to take off. By this stage I've become more sensible and decided to forget about details such as the "squinches" till the donkey work is done.

Here's the heel end with a bit more carving:
Image

(That's the 600th build photo, by the way!!! Phew!)

And the full length of the carve:
Image

And after a bit more shaping, again now with the files:
Image

Now at last I think it is legitimate to attend to a bit of fine shaping. Even the sandpaper is coming out at this stage:
Image

Now I'm concentrating on getting the surface regular and smooth, with no dips and bumps. If you look up at the heel you can maybe see how much more round the carve has become:
Image

Having at last got the shaft of the neck feeling pretty good and the thickness to around 22.5 mm at the first fret, 25.5 mm at the twelfth, I'm going to leave off for the evening. Those measurements are too big, we all agree. However, I want to spend some hours running my hand around this neck shape as well has handling other guitars for comparison.

I need some breathing time to think about it and work out my final adjustments, which I will do when I start again fresh tomorrow. So I shall not bother for now about the transitional details such as those triangular "squinches", or the very edges of the curve. You can see here how I have stopped short of the edge, leaving that till the last:
Image

One last photo to keep your appetites whetted. Admit it, this photo tempts you to reach out and pick this neck up to see how it feels, don't it? :D
Image

Wow. I'm thirsty - C


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Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 4:22 pm
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It does indeed make me want to feel that neck!
Outstanding work!
How long does it take to do all that shaping and sanding Ceri?

-T


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Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 4:34 pm
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tyronne wrote:
It does indeed make me want to feel that neck!
Outstanding work!
How long does it take to do all that shaping and sanding Ceri?

Hi tyronne. Too long - that's inexperience for you. I bet the Custom Shop guys could do the whole thing in an hour, 'cause they know exactly where they're taking it from the moment they start.

I've done far less of this than them so I have to feel my way gradually. And also waste tons of time smoothing up my surfaces again and again, when I should be removing lumber! As you saw...

I think there's a fair bit more fine tuning to do tomorrow too. This thing is still too thick and the shoulders could do with taking back yet more. I'm not aiming for a V-neck - but I don't want a "boat" shape either!

Still. Tomorrow should see it finished - I hope!

'Night all - C


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Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 4:41 pm
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Coming along nicely Ceri! This is so much more work than people realize!

That cider looks refreshing! I would worry about the shavings getting in it, doesn't need any pulp added! :wink:

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Post subject: HI
Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 4:44 pm
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BLAAAAAAA AND TWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA Ceri fantastic thread and job on that almost destrpyed guitar body hahahahhahaha niki you must have had a few too many when you tried it so funny but at least it was meant to be so Ceri could fiddle with it and teach us all how to save it great read Ceriiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii is a legend blaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa and double twaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa


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Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 7:10 pm
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Fantastic work ceri. I can't believe it's nearly the end of this build thread... what will we do then?

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