I'm no gear snob at all, my most played and personal favourite started out as a £200 mexican squire series strat. It still gets played more than anything else, though the only original parts are the neck and a couple of screws. Thats ok though, it was chosen above all else before I went to town on it. Infact my drummer usually picks what guitar I should play.
I only wanted people to enjoy seeing the guitars made, I honestly couldnt give two hoots about price and quality differences. If I have the cash and see a guitar I like alot, then 9/10 I'll buy it. After serious deliberation, usually involving chocolates, flowers and backrubs.

Anyhow onto Important stuff.
How can I convince my missus that the SCN pickups in my CS guitar aren't quite good enough. Despite having them on two other guitars. And that they need to be changed for a set of tex spesh's I've seen at a bargain price?

While were about it advice on sneaking in a 72 plexi wouldnt go amiss either.

I've found the best shop in the world and its on my drummers doorstep. 64 bassman or a couple of tremolux's anyone?

00:45 and I'm just back from a 17 hour work day, wrecked. Night all.

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No no and no

I will answer that one question for you...between those three options, all things being relative I would mostly likely take the MIM...because that is in fact exactly what I did back in 1996. When I purchased my MIM back in '96 I played several Strats...Squiers, MIMs and Americans. I -could- have gotten an American Strat...my wife had the credit card out...I didn't. I played a number of Strats before I settled on my MIM...the main reason I got the MIM was feel. The Am Std's at the time did sound better but the MIM had a much better feel...I can -easily- change the sound of a given Strat but changing the feel...that's a whole different ball game. My MIM did...and still does...feel like "an old friend".

Very simply I would rather spend $200 - $500 on a guitar that is a good instrument to begin with and put a couple of hundred in to it to make it the way -I- want it. I end up with an instrument that is -to me- better than the $1200 instrument and I have more money left for my effort.

Also just for the record, 2 weeks ago I did again play a number of Strats side by side...3 American Standards, an MIM (sorry...I forget the years on the MIAs and the MIMs but they were all used) and an '85 MIJ Squier. I could have gotten any of them but the guitar I walked out of the store with was the '85 MIJ Squier. I would also add that while my '85 MIJ is a -wonderful- guitar, I'm already making plans to change a few things...she's going to get the same roller T's as my MIM, a steel trem block (if I can find one), etc.. Sticking with the stock pickups on that one though...very sweet tone.

With that I will once again reiterate my earlier sentiments...I'm not going to change your mind and your not going to change mine. If you think the difference with an MIA warrants the radical difference in cost and you can afford it...you buy 'em. I won't waste my money like that.


Jim

Great video, thanks for sharing that. As far as the rest of the discussion, we all like Strats some just prefer some models over others. That will never change.

Ok...first I'm going to apologize to anyone else here for prolonging this debate. That said, I'm going to post a few more "honest opinions" here...for my own piece of mind if nothing else.

I've been thinking about this a lot this evening and I feel that a lot of this has gotten rather turned around, so I'm going to start back with my original comments which were...or at least intended to be about "craftsmanship". For the sake of clarity I would like to explain -why- I feel the way I do about this issue.

Clearly, Fender makes a variety of Strats in different prices ranges and I will go so far as to admit that there -are- differences between the models (although I still don't believe most of the important differences are all the significant). The point I've been trying to make is simply this; is it a question of "craftsmanship" or "design"?

Let's start with pickups. I think there is a general consensus that MIM pickups are not nearly as good sounding as MIA pickups (let alone Duncans, EMGs, DiMarzios, etc). So here's the question...is this a matter of craftsmanship or is it by design? Let's say that you gave the Fender plant down in Mexico the equipment to make their own pickups and let's assume that equipment as well as the parts of the pickups themselves (pole pieces, wire, bobbins, etc) were -identical- to what's used in an MIA. It seems to me that with proper training and supervision, a Mexican worker should be able to produce a pickup that sounds similar, if not the same as an MIA. Now clearly here, while Fender does want to sell those MIM Strats, they also certainly want to sell MIA Strats as well...right? If they made MIM guitars that sounded -as good- as MIAs, less people would be likely to buy an MIA...I think this is a safe assumption. If then that is indeed the case, this isn't a reflection of "craftsmanship", it's a matter of design...do you see my point?

Let's compare a Chinese Squier body with an MIA. Obviously the first difference is the wood used. Most MIA typically use alder where as CICs usually (often) use agathis. Now I would surmise that this specific issue is a regional thing. I think that most folks would agree that the reason Leo Fender first used alder and ash in his early designs wasn't so much because they were "the best woods for guitars" as much as they were plentiful and affordable for mass production as well as "easy woods to work". If Fender had of been based on the East Coast instead of the West, they may very well have used poplar in those early instruments instead. Regardless here, again this isn't really any reflection on craftsmanship...agathis is just what is readily available over there.

If we're going to address workmanship here, then lets look at how these bodies are created and this is one of my BIG points. Those bodies are cut on virtual identical equipment as the Corona plant and whats more, they're cut to specs put down by Fender. Now I have had my CIC Squier Standard apart a couple of times and I have to say here that the actual workmanship that went into this body is really very good. It's certainly no hack job as I've seen on other import instruments...good clean cuts for the cavities...the neck fits in to the neck pocket like a glove and as I've said before, even the finish on mine is lovely. With the issues of bodies specifically, I think there is very little perceptible difference in the quality of any workmanship between a CIC and an MIA.

Necks... Ok, this is subjective but the nicest Fender necks I've ever played are the MIJ's. That said, to keep this in perspective, between CICs, MIMs and MIAs yes, there is certainly a difference in regards to issues such as fretwork and such. Fender does clearly take a little more time with the MIAs in this regards. The question here though is again is this a matter of craftsmanship or is it by design? Are we really implying that somehow Chinese or Mexican workers are some how genetically inferior humans who are incapable doing good fretwork compared with Americans? I find it extremely difficult to believe that's really the case. If that were the case, I don't think the CIC and MIM Strats would have necks nearly as nice as they are. With that I would also add that in regards to both my CIC and my MIM, the neck and fret work isnt' bad at all. I've had no problems with fret buzz on either instrument, there aren't any sharp edges (although my MIJ does seem to have 1 that's gonna need a bit of filing), no problems with the truss rods on either neck and on my MIM which is again a 1996, I've never really had any problems with it at all beyond typical issues such as humidity, change of the seasons, etc (which in my house, seems to plague all of my guitars just a bit). So again here I have to honestly say that the differences in craftsmanship/workmanship between these particular aspects of these parts aren't that terribly radical compared with an MIA. Is there a difference? Yes. Is it huge? No...not even remotely so.

Now lets reverse this logic a bit. Let's take the issue of "design" out of the equation for a moment. Let's say that the American plant, the Mexican plant and the Chinese plant were all given the exact same design specs. Bodies and necks had to be cut to a certain pattern (i.e. Strat), tolerances were all the same, all three plants used the same pickups (or had to make the pickups the same way) and hardware for bridges and such were virtually identical. If these things were all equal...and here is the $100,000 question...if all these things were equal, would there be a vast difference between the final product or would they be virtually identical? -THIS- is what I'm talking about in regards to craftsmanship. Maybe it's just that I really am -that- naive or perhaps it's simply that I have very darned little "American Pride" but I honestly and truly believe that provided with equal components and equal specifications, that all three plants would produce -extremely- similar instruments. If that is indeed the case, the exactly how does one warrant the $700 price difference between an MIM and an MIA let alone the $1000 difference between a CIC and an MIA?

Let's face it here....the folks at Fender are pretty smart cookies when it comes to marketing. They know there are some folks looking to buy entry level instruments, they know there's folks like me who can be happy with a mid level instrument and they know there are others who will always have to have "top shelf". That said, I think they also know that if they started producing $200 or $400 instruments that were virtually identical to a $1200 instrument, those sales on the $1200 would drop very quickly. Yea...some people would still buy them...some people really are that anally retentive and thick headed, but as a whole, those sales would drop. As such, I state that these differences aren't a matter of craftsmanship but simply that of design. If for no other reason at all, this is why I don't think the American Standards are worth the cost. Ok...so someone at Corona spent a little more time leveling frets on an MIA...whoopy...I can do that myself. How does that really justify a -$700- price in regards to actual craftsmanship?

So that all said, for me, this really changes nothing. I still won't pay a premium price for a guitar when I can modify a less expensive instrument myself to create something that I truly do enjoy (and for that matter is often truly unique as well). Granted, not everyone has these same skills and some folks do have to live with "off the shelf". Regardless, if I can take a $500 instrument, put $300 worth of parts upgrades into it and a little bit of work, I'd MUCH rather do this than fork out the $1200. If I can do the same with a $200 instrument...exactly where's the harm?

BTW...so no one accuses me of not answering the question, as I stated elsewhere, if both were free, yes I would most likely take an MIM over an MIA as for all intensive purposes, I already have...and I would be most grateful for it.

So jromanov I'm going to ask you -1- question and then I will let the rest of this go. Let's say you were presented with 2 guitars and one of those guitars was $800 and the other was $1200. Let's also say that the $800 instrument was a superior instrument...that it plays better in -your- hands and sounds better to -your- ears than the $1200 guitar. The question is, yes or no, would you really buy the more expensive instrument let alone do so based soley on what country it was produced in?


Ok...I've said my peace. If folks don't get what I've said here, they NEVER will. Again I'm just stating why I feel the way I do about all of this. These are, as always, just my own personal opinions.

Peace,
Jim

Well before I address the question about the Mrs, I would like to take a moment and apologize for turning your thread in to the fiasco that it's become...sorry. With that last bloated comment of mine, I'm done now.

Now as to the Mrs....if it really is a "bargain", that's usually where I start with my own wife. "But honey...look here...these normally go for $79.95 each and this guy only wants $45 for all three!", LOL!!! Charts and graphs and print outs with comparative cost analysis...shows you put some real thought in to it .

Now with my wife who is a musician herself, I do usually have a little leeway as she does understand G.A.S. but that said, I generally do also have to prove that said purchase isn't just a "passing fancy" either. In this case you could tell her that the Cobalts are certainly "good" but the Tex pickups are going to give you a very different tone that you can use for certain material (like SRV)....a more authentic tone.

You could try taking her in to a music store and play a guitar already equipped with the Tex pickups too...show her how "really sweet" they sound. With the MIJ I recently brought home, this was what really saved my nuts from being stuffed in the toaster...I just sat there and played it for a bit and my wife finally walked over and said "ok...yea...that one really does sound sweet...ok...you can keep it".

Then of course there's bargaining...get the garage cleaned or the painting done or the new wall paper in the kitchen or the new flooring in the bathroom. Flowers/roses...take her out for a nice dinner...sex. Also...while this doesn't work with my wife, most women do have a thing for diamonds .

Of course, when push comes to shove...I'm not above begging either.


G'Luck there mate!
Jim

Yeah- maybe I just havent noticed it. I had another look yesterday- if the Ultra and the Deluxe both had rolled edges, then maybe I just didnt notice it from my MIM I had. but they feel the same I will admit.

Anyway- big shock for me was the size of the facility. In NZ we dont have factorys that size- not even close. Maybe my deluxe was hanging up in the rafters drying for three days... maybe my next guitar is hangin up there now. I must admit with my hand on my heart- I did think it was a little more hands on, and I had no idea fender was that huge. I knew it was big, but not THAT big.


I guess what I was getting at is the level of craftsmanship not only in price brackets, but also from different manufacturers dare I say. I would be interested to find out what manufacturer will give the best level of craftmanship relative for the money you pay at any level. I know this is a fender thread but hey- I dont mean to start anything either and I dont want to take the pi$$. its a good question I think that will get varying opinions but no arguements please.

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Jim

Very interesting story...I'm not sure that you could get anyone else here to also pretend that "for free" they would also take the MIM over the MIA. At least say that you would take the MIA ...sell it...buy the MIM and keep the change. Although IMO you would only say that to hold fast to your position on this.

You do loose me a little bit with your story...First you say that you "admit there are differences" then you say "the pickups are not nearly as good sounding" , "obviously the first difference is the wood used" , "there is certainly a difference in regards to issues such as fretwork"

Then the $100,000 question..."If all these things were equal"...They Are Not Equal... "provided with equal components and equal spec, all 3 plants would produce extremely similar instruments"...They Are Not Provided Or Extremely Similar...

You then mention "Entry Level"..."MId Level"..."Top Shelf" and you continue to point out the obvious differences.

"So someone at Corona spent a little more time leveling frets...Whoopy...I can do that myself" Your kidding with this statement right. "I can modify a less expensive instrument myself, although not everyone has these same skills" ...Pretty Condescending and a little Insulting as well.

"If both were free I would Most Likely take the MIM over the MIA" No one believes this. "Lets say that I was choosing between an $800.00 & a $1200.00 instrument and the $800.00 instrument was a superior instrument" ...But It Is Not..."That it play's better"...But It Does Not...."And it sounds better"...But Again, It Does Not....Not even to you based on your entire story.

So Jim...please enjoy every kind of guitar, there is certainly a great variety available. As you have stated yourself, Fender makes Entry Level Squires...Mid Level MIM's....and Top Shelf USA Strats. And also IMO, you should lighten up a little (with all do respect)...after all, we are talking about guitars here, and even with the USA strats included, we are talking about inexpensive guitars in the big picture. Strats (including USA Strats) are some of the least expensive quality guitars that you can buy. All of my Gibson, Ibanez, & Taylor guitars cost way more than any of my MIA Strats. Way More! My Guitar Cables cost more than Squire Strats.

Fender doesn't even put Squires or MIM's in a case...they come in bags.

Noodles

Guys, on buying the guitar you want or the guitar you can afford. I too picked the cheaper option, some fourteen years ago. After some personal travesty/blessing I was guitarless. A friend gave me a £30 encore strat copy. I'd despised strats up to that point, bemoaning them to be far too basic and bland. Anyhow singlecoils plugged into the hifi convinced me otherwise. Part of that 'too basic' attitude has probably stuck, hence the constant modding. Anyhow next tax rebate I got (always sizable being self employed) I went to musical exchanges in Birmingham. At the time it was the biggest guitar shop in europe. The guitar section being the size of half a football pitch. I played around 30 guitars, including a £10K playboy, with the attitude of 'even if this £1500 I have is only enough for a deposit, I'm walking out with the guitar I want. I ended up with the bottom of the range fender squire series model you may have seen a picture of. It (the neck) simply felt unlike anything else in the shop. Done the remainder in on a Valvestate and a jcm800. The hifi was blown.

Sometimes it does happen, I think genuine cases are a lot rarer than internet tales would have us believe though. The neck of that guitar still stands the test of time today compared to guitars that cost numerous times what the old one did. Thats why its not going anywhere. Like I've said previously, old familiar tools and all that trot.

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No no and no

I used to wake up in the morning and the first thing I did was read the newspaper while drinking a cup of coffee. I still follow that same regiment with the exception being that this thread has replaced my newspaper.
As a wise man once said "Grasshopper, the wisdom you seek and strive to share can easily be seen with your eyes as your hand turns the price tag around."


JK!! Not taking sides

Hi again Blertles: well that's interesting, and I have a couple of contrasting answers to offer.

There is a well known saying about musical instruments that you pay 100 percent more to get a 10% increase in quality. Doing the sums on that suggests therefore that something like a Squier Strat offers the best value for money, because the quality is (say) 20% less but the price is 90% lower.

And from what I've seen of the newish Classic Vibe Squiers that is absolutely true. A lot of guitar for a very low price!

At a different level I'd suggest that small scale luthiers working on their own in tiny workshops offer amazing value for money. Instruments that rank with the very best; the opportunity for one off custom features built bespoke; and often at prices that compare very favorably with the big companies' custom shops.

Well worth combing the small ads at the back of guitar magazines - there's some great builders hiding there...

Cheers - C

I often find this thread to be very entertaining as well. For some reason, I always find myself getting sucked in to a discussion comparing Squires, MIM's and MIA's.

There is really no discussion here...we are not comparing apples to apples by any stretch of the imagination. All of these models have their own place in the world of guitars, and even their own manufacturer (Fender Musical Instruments) does not attempt to compare them to each other in any way.

There is absolutely nothing whatsoever wrong with a Squire guitar, absolutely nothing wrong with an MIM, and nothing wrong with an MIA. They all have their own audience.

What usually gets my attention is when someone says "don't pay for an MIA when the others are just as good" This is of course, someones opinion. They always follow up that opinion with a list of mods that they have done to the "Just As Good" other model. This I always find humorous.

Enjoy your coffee
Noodles

You asked me for an honest answer and I gave you one based on what I've done -twice- in the past now and when I didn't give you the answer that you expected or because you're apparently incapable of understanding my reasoning let alone that I don't think the same way as everyone else or have the same values, you simply insinuate that I am a liar....and then you tell -me- to lighten up?

You expect me to "Just answer one question honestly" but you can't even have the basic courtesy to be bothered to do the same?

You sit there and say "This is all talk and no one gets sent to "Guitar Prison" for voicing an opinion" yet when I do this...try to provide an -honest- opinion that I have repeatedly stated is <b>just my opinion</b>, you try and tear it to shreds because you're unable to acknowledge that I may have ANY point what so ever? Are people allowed to express their opinions -ONLY- as long as they agree with yours?


I'm sorry that an elitist snob such as yourself has such a blithering time trying to understand that not everyone drools over something just because it's expensive or because -you- think it has value...personally I don't care for most Gibsons either and I -hate- Taylors (I don't like Martins for that matter either). I know what -I- like. Further I feel sorry for you that you are so utterly set in your ways and are apparently so narrow minded...you must live a pathetically shallow life (and if you find that offensive, that's what you get for insinuating that someone a liar). You also appear to be one of those pathetic individuals who gets his entertainment by trying to get a rise out of others. Either way, as I've already stated twice now, clearly I'm not going to change your mind and your are utterly incapable of ever changing mine. I've said my peace and if you're too anally retentive to even attempt to understand another's point of view...it's not worth my wasting any more time on you.



Say what you will...have the last word if you feel you must (and I have no doubt that you will)...I'm done with this topic.

Jim ... Dude

First of all ... I never called you a liar! Please make one of those cool quote boxes around where I call you a "Liar"

Second ... I couldn't care less about your opinion, and you shouldn't care less about mine. We are talking about GUITARS dude! Sadly, I don't give a crap about all your name calling, disrespect, insults, and your lame attempt at putting me down. If you don't think that you need to "lighten up"...take a trip to the blood pressure machine before you pop a vein over a GUITAR!

I feel bad for you Jim, and you come off like a crazed psycho with that rant of disrespectful banter that you just spewed.

Please feel free to say something disrespectful about my mother...you seem to have missed that.

I usually find myself apologizing about insulting someone, or disclaiming my opinions, or my intentions, or my use of sarcasm after one of these discussions. But this time I would just like to say "SCREW YOU A-HOLE"

Have a nice day

Hey A-Hole

Other people take this crap from you?...I think you owe me an apology,like a man! Lets see if your big enough to apologize or if you just slither off into some other post.

I do encourage you to apologize!

Thats exactly what I thought

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