I tried to google aswell as search on youtube a similar tour or on shots of their production process- like the one posted, but on Customshop- and turned up with nothing. Ill leave that up for anyone to draw conclusions, but if they make their own bodies and necks- im yet to see proof. My best assumption would be that the best pre-cut bodies or blanks are taken for CS, finished and assembled. The main difference, one would be a flamed maple, with a more distinct shape, one plain with a more general shape. If they are nitro- then perhaps are they sprayed in the same booth that AVRI's are sprayed? Im talking teambuilt here- Masterbuilt I think maybe a different story- perhaps a little more hands on.


Without turning this into a debate- whats the advantage of having two seperate CNC machines in different parts of the factory doing the same work? same with re-finishing- why have a muti-million dollar booth for spraying, and pay someone to spray and buff nitro by hand at the other end of the building? that would seem a little pointless to me. Otherwise this is where you justify the price difference.

_________________

I'm just theorizing here...I have absolutely no facts to back this up other than my own personal experience building a couple of bodies but.....

Once you remove the "mass production" from the equation, there are certainly a number of elements that an experience builder would look for. Obviously the quality of the wood for one and while I could be wrong, I would think this would start with a body blank in most cases as far as the CS goes (as apposed to grabbing a pre-cut body from the assembly line). I'm sure there's more calculated and scientific methods involved for the pros but I know that some of us "weekend warriors" still rely on the ol' knock test to determine how resonant a given piece of wood is. For those who don't understand this, walk in to any lumber store and literally wrap your knuckles against a few different pieces of wood and listen to the sound...start with a hardwood commonly used for guitars such as alder, poplar, maple or mahogany (if you can find it) then knock on a softer piece of wood such as pine then go knock on a piece of plywood...you -can- hear a difference. Beyond that I'm sure a CS master builder also looks at things such as the quality of the grain if the body is to be finished in something like a sunburst. Obviously this would be dependent upon the customers order...if the customer wanted a book matched flame maple top for example (or quilted maple or other figured wood) one would have to balance "tone" with "aesthetics". If the body is to be an opaque color (ala black or fiesta red, etc), then the look of the grain isn't going to be nearly as significant a consideration in choose the wood. Looking at neck blanks would be another thing...spotting wood that would be good and true for a nice rock stable straight neck. The closer to quarter sawn, the better.

I would certainly think that the master builder would be responsible for making sure the instrument was assembled per the customers order as well. If the customer wanted a such and such neck, such and such wood for the body then say Texas Special pickups, a specific pickguard, certain type of tuners, etc., it would be the MB's responsibility to make sure those are the parts that are on the instrument.

Now as to how much "hand's on" work the builder would do...I would think that would depend on the customer more than anything. You can bet if someone like Clapton ordered a Custom Shop instrument, Fender would put their best people on it. On the other hand if some otherwise unheard of shmoe from just West of Cleveland just had the money to fork out for a Custom Shop instrument of this nature...I'd probably bet the master builder would probably have someone equivalent to an "apprentice" do a good majority of the physical work while the builder "supervised". Of course all of the work would still have to get the master's blessing but...you get the idea. I would also be willing to bet that even if the CNC machines weren't used in this regards, they would certainly still use jigs of some kind...routing the neck pocket, drilling the tuning key holes, slotting the neck for frets, etc., etc.. With something like a neck, I'm sure they have something where they can load a "profile" in on one side of a cutting machine to duplicate what the customer wants. Say the customer wants a neck with a '62 profile...ya load the profile thingy into the machine and trace it on to the piece that's being cut....probably not terribly dissimilar to a key cutting machine I would imagine. Even outside of the mass production facility I'm sure that a place such as a Custom Shop (Fender or otherwise) likely uses a great deal of very specialized equipment for producing individual instruments...unlike us weekend warriors who still try to fudge by with a Craftsman router from Sears! LOL!!! It would -really- surprise me to see a builder in this day and age break out an old "spoke shave" to cut a neck. Either way, it's not like a Fender Master Builder is going to be sitting there with hammer an chisel trying to cut those pickup cavities. I'd bet there's still a good deal of "automation" involved in the whole process.

Anyways...again that's not based on any facts at all. I really don't know how they do it really, but that all seems fairly logical to me.

As always, just my own $.02 worth,
Jim

So I guess the question in my mind is this, taking into consideration:

Body wood- I think it wouldnt be hard to give a block of hardwood the knock test or put a tuning fork against to test the resonanse. Also, taking a very pretty piece of flamed maple to the guy and asking him to "rout me me a '56 please mate"

What are you left with thats craftsmanship- the assembly? assuming all the parts of hardware are all at their disposal, with exception to relicing of course. Anything thats more intricate for example- a russian strat, will be more hands-on. Now of course there's no proof for me to prove this so I stand to be confirmed or corrected. Why- I cant find any customshop pictures of anyone whittling wood or anything remotely pointing to the fact that they do their own work- I dont know. But I can only speculate why.

_________________

Another thing- with regard to the Am Deluxe- it says the following under unique features:

S-1 Switching,
Aged Plastic Parts,
Abalone Dot Position Inlays,
Highly Detailed Fret and Nut Work


What is the highly detailed fret and nut work?
Rolled fingerboard edges...? what is that? comparing to my ultra and my old mim I had- for the life of me, I cant spot the difference.

_________________

Okay i call foul on this one...Im a huge MIM Strat fan who also owns a Ultra..But on an ultra VS an mim there is a huge difference...Like the hand rolled edges.Run your finger down the side of your fet board of your ultra there is no edge now do the same with the mim you will most defiantly feel an edge..But the good thing is some sand paper and 45 minutes will fix that problem on the mim..

Gosh, really?

...Anyhow. Regarding differences between factory line and Custom Shop "hand made" (whatever that means): here's one thing I'd be looking for.

This is a photo of a factory neck pocket showing the feature known as "mouse ears", where a router has been run into the corners to open them out:



To this day you still find that on factory guitars at all levels of the catalog. Here on the Forum someone posted a picture of an expensive Eric Johnson Sig Strat with mouse ears on the pocket.

It is often done after the body is finished where a neck doesn't quite fit the pocket properly. Ron Kirn discusses it in detail on this page of his website (where the photo above comes from):

http://www.ronkirn.com/tutorial/strat_tutorial7.htm

He says it happens when (as on his guitars) the neck is made by someone else and doesn't fit the body maker's routing pattern perfectly. Therefore why it is happening on Fender guitars, where the necks and bodies are made in the same factory, is anyone's guess.

I have American, Japanese, Korean and Chinese Fenders and the Japanese guitar is the only one that doesn't have mouse ears. Go figure...

Anyhow. It is functionally unimportant - but aesthetically displeasing, on a craftsmanly level. For the extra thousands that a CS guitar costs I'd expect to find details like that addressed. I can get that stuff right: for sure a CS Masterbuilder can too.

So I'd be fascinated to hear whether anyone with a Custom Shop guitar has mouse ears on their neck pocket or not...?

Cheers - C

The answer to this timeless question is very easy..."Just Play One" If you can't tell the "giant" difference in playability, feel, finish, and sound between the MIA's and those "other" production line Strats, than by all means you should buy the cheaper one. This should be a no brainer. Why even look at the different models? Same automation, same construction, same lack of "craftsmanship" ... just ask the sales guy for the least expensive one he has in the store ... their all the same anyway.

Sorry for the sarcasm, but IMO the concept is a little silly to me.

Noodles

Great clip AND music!

_________________
Being able to play and enjoy music is a gift that's often taken for granted.

Don't leave home without it!

"Just play one"...sorry but I find that just as silly. The truth is that I've been playing for well over 25 years now and I've played -MANY- instruments from MANY brands...both expensive and inexpensive. I've played (and bought) some inexpensive instruments that were indeed very nice and I've played some high end guitars that were just not all that impressive. In addition to the many other instruments I own, I currently have a '96 MIM Fender, '85 MIJ Squier and an '08 CIC Squier Standard Special and very simply sir, there is no "giant difference" in regards to actual craftsmanship as you suggest. Yes...there -are- differences but a great many of those differences are by design and have NOTHING to do with "craftsmanship". The '96 MIM and the '85 MIJ are definitely my favorites and I would easily put either against an Am Std any day but my '08 CIC Standard is no slouch. Yes...I did change the pickups to a set of VN's and no the quality of the bridge isn't as good as that of a $1200 instrument but she is a very fine playing instrument, the neck and fretwork are very good to say the least and she is absolutely one of the most beautiful guitars I've ever seen...that finish is just immaculate! In the end, if I can take a $200 to $400 instrument and put a little money and work in to it so that it plays and sounds the way -I- want it to...I still walk away with a lot more money in the bank than I would of had I of bought a new Am Std...and I still have a very fine instrument to boot.

No, I'm not talking about a Squier Bullet or Affinity vs. an American Standard...there is certainly a difference there. That said, the Bullets and Affinities are still VASTLY superior to anything you could have gotten in the same price range 20 years ago and they -ARE- excellent entry level instruments. What I'm talking about are instruments such as the higher end Squiers such as the Standards and Deluxes as well as the Mexican made instruments as compared with an American Standard and I'm sorry if this offends you but the differences in actual craftsmanship isn't all that significant. Sure the hardware and pickups are different and such but that's NOT what we're talking about...we're talking about fit and finish of the bodies, necks, etc.. This is of course just my own opinion but I can't see where these "differences in craftsmanship" between an MIM Standard and an American Standard really warrant a -$700- difference let alone a $1000 difference compared with a Squier Standard...I'm sorry if this offends you but that's just plain stupid to me. Personally I would MUCH rather spend $200 to $500 on a decent instrument, upgrade the pickups and hardware the way -I- want and still have money left over in the bank.

Regardless, you think that American made instruments are somehow superior in every arguable way and since you can apparently afford what you (subjectively) feel is a "giant difference", there is absolutely nothing I can say that will ever change your mind. Enjoy your guitars and I'll simply enjoy mine.

Jim

Jim
Kinda touchy about buying those $200 - $400 Strats. This subject has been discussed a million times and I enjoy it every time none the less."Just Play One" does not refer to the many many brands that you site, as you very well know. It refers to Strats and only Strats. I have also been playing for well over 25 years and would bet that I own more guitars than you...also meaningless. "Just Play One" means that you and I go into Guitar Center...Play a Squire...Play a MIM...and Play an MIA and if you can't tell the Giant difference, than you need only to buy the least expensive one.

I love reading about how "MY MIM" plays and sounds as nice as any MIA now that I've changed the pickups, bridge, machine heads (so it will stay in tune) had the frets done, and replaced the input jack...I'm considering having it painted also, and I'll still have change left. This Jim IMO is absolutely silly.

You can stick as many Cadillac Escalade emblems on to your Ford Expedition as you would like (and still have money left over) it will just never be an Escalade.

Noodles

I love reading about how "MY MIM" plays and sounds as nice as any MIA now that I've changed the pickups, bridge, machine heads (so it will stay in tune) had the frets done, and replaced the input jack...I'm considering having it painted also, and I'll still have change left. This Jim IMO is absolutely silly.[/quote]


You can stick as many Cadillac Escalade emblems on to your Ford Expedition as you would like (and still have money left over) it will just never be an Escalade.

Noodles[/quote]


Ya know, I was going to do another rebuttal here but again there's absolutely no point....I'm never going to change your opinion and you sir are certainly NEVER going to change mine. You think American Strats are that much better...you buy them. Your loss, not mine. I simply won't waste my money that way.

Enjoy.

BTW...not sure why you'd compare a Cadilac Escalade which is a GM product to a Ford but either way, don't the escalades use the exact same engines as the Chevy Avalanche and Silverados and the GMC Yukons? Interesting...

Jim

Just compared the GM to the Ford because you have played "many brands of guitar" While we were comparing Fender, not "many brands". Doesn't even make sense to you does it?

Just answer me one question honestly... please...If you could have the guitar for free...which do you take?...the Squire? the MIM? or the MIA?

Your Escalade example is spot on also. GM Product (same engine) as those other GM's...same engine as the H2 Hummer as well....anybody telling you that the Silverado is as good as the Escalade? I doubt it.

Are the Squires & MIM's cheaper...absolutely in every sense of the word.

Noodles

Come on Jim

If you had anything better to do you wouldn't be on the forum in the first place. Just the (which one for free) question would be great. This is all talk and no one gets sent to "Guitar Prison" for voicing an opinion. If you answer honestly, and you really think the Squire & MIM's are the same machine made no craftsmanship pieces as the MIA's, then you would surely take one of them for free over the MIA...yes / no

Noodles

Nik
Thanks for the post. I enjoyed the video and and the thread as it degenerated into another pointless argument about the relative merits of different Fender products....

My 2 cents: I am an American Standard snob, but I played a Squire Classic Vibe the other day that really blew me away. It almost went home with me until I realized I'd be $300 and some change short on the next MIA. oops...

I agree...I enjoyed the video as well, although it was the video that inspired the degeneration to pointless argument, which I must admit is my favorite thing to take part in. I apologize if this offended anyone, but you must admit it is much more thought provoking than "what's your favorite strat color". I am often disappointed when there is a difference of opinion and it ends with "the cold shoulder"

Niki...you are a gentleman, and you always go the distance. For this I do respect your opinions.

These forums are supposed to be entertaining as well as informative. Some people's "favorite color strat" is red and thats it...end of discussion.

Thanks
Noodles