They must play themselves if they come with a free guitar

I've had 7 strats 5 mia 1cij and 1 1975 ibanez the only one I wish I still had is the Ibanez

If there are other American made guitars that I wanna buy, it would be from Pensa, Suhr, Tom Anderson, and Hahn guitars.

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2009 Fender Am Std Strat
2006 Highway 1 Strat
1 alien dog

Jromanov

please then lets put this behind us. I would also like to apologise for any offence caused. I can honestly say i dont think badly of America or Americans. What your nation is experiencing now (a country full of middle management with trades/tradespeople/apprenticeships dying out) is exactly what my country went through in the 80's. We (to quote a good friend from NY) have become a nation of middle management ineffectual boobies, that cant produce anything and just keep passing the buck. Its horrible and painful and leads to no good. I fully understand your anger at the situation. Blaming far eastern people employed by such management types however is not on. Do you think they work for less than us out of choice. No of course not, they'd love the rich affluent lifestyes we enjoy. On a side note whilst we (the western world) keep exploiting eastern slave labour were going to constantly produce people that hate us or are insanely jealous of us. They slave 14 hours a day for a little more than a couple of quid and watch us sit on our fat arses and pay more for a pair of nikes than they earn in 6 months. Then they see the indifferent way we feel about such items. We dont even think about them, just put the shoes on and off we go with no thought of the cost. It must get pretty galling.
Who is to blame? You ask. Is it the poor guy in korea with his missus and kids of 5 working alongside him, just so they can eat that day. They'll probably sleep on the factory floor that night as they have to walk 60 miles to work (that also is a stark reality out there). Or is it the guy sat in Nikes office who chose to use labour so cheap that increases his profit margin to close on 80%. Its hardly suprising that we produce people wanting to kill us from that part of the world is it?

What do we do as consumers? Boycott such companies, let their far eastern workforce that have suffered abuse at the hands of our middle management boobies for decades, starve.
Carry on buying with no thought at all (look where that just got our economies).
Start picketing such companies for better work conditions and pay for such people.
Standards from such far eastern factories are set by people that live next door to us and work in the office down the road. They dont produce bad instruments on purpose (the majority of the time. Bazzaar guitars are probably the exception). They stick to guidelines and tolerances set by management types in our nations. They are all to happy to see us blame the factory that pays peanuts instead of them. Take a look at ESP who ed roman has plenty to say about. Even their American instruments are made in Japan.

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No no and no

Thanks for accepting the apology. What you say is very true. Western culture has gravitated to this situation through greed and arrogance. There are many many items manufactured, outside of the states, that we have "no choice" but to buy....electronics (no US manufacturers) sneakers (as you point out) power tools (check out home depot).

I am very compassionate to the plight of these people in other countries, and find it horrific that anyone in the world would be deprived of food. I don't think that "Corporate America" actually cares about this, although they pretend that they are supplying jobs for these people. Personal profit with minimal investment is their goal.

On the other hand, if an item is manufactured within the US or within The UK in your case, we should try to buy these items in support of our collective economies and local workforces. We should not put down our own products in favor of "saving a buck". I bet that Nike (at $100.00 a pair) could open factories in either of our countries and make a good profit on their products. They choose not to....but I assure you that it is not through compassion for the oppressed, but instead exploitation of "cheap" labor.

Thanks again and have a great day
Noodles

[quote="cvilleira"][


It's about time, CV. Was just waiting for you to kick in with the circular flow of capital analysis and the fact that we have literally priced ourselves out of our own markets. In many quarters we can no longer afford to purchase the goods that domestic manufacturers pay us to to produce. Sounds f----d up, I know, but true. The contraction of the automobile industry is the latest example of the phenomenon.

I too come from a labor family, a member of at least four unions myself over the past 50 years, an uncle who was, in fact, the International President of the American Newspaper Guild, and a major player in the growth of organized labor in the NYC area and nationally since before WWII. Wherefore now the daily blahs?

I have, as neighbors, two retired public school teachers whose retirement plans including health care benefits for life would require someone working in another sector to have accumulated principal of at least 4 million dollars to generate the same dollar annuity these two are receiving. This is also reflected across the state in other public service jobs.

We could go on and on about this but the bottom line, returning to the original post centers on a company such as Fender or PRS attempting to remain viable. In order to do so, they are obliged to seek as broad a consumer base as possible because their American built product, cost wise, can only appeal to a narrow market. My observation was, notwithstanding, that PRS was building a very high quality instrument, at much lower cost.

I'm going to have to seek out jroman when I get to Florida this season and perhaps toether with stratman steve, and anyone else in the Dade, Broward, and Palm Beach county areas, we can solve in the best interests of the nation at large

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"Another day in paradise!"

ZZDOC

Well written post, and if you are in Florida sometime, maybe we can try to solve the problems of the world together. I find it incredibly interesting reading many of the posts on the forum...not so much for the content...but because of how they stray, or more often "rocket" off onto subjects that have nothing to do with the original post. This phenomenon, which occurs regularly, resulted in an unnecessary "word" fight between myself and Ninja for which I am very sorry about, and was never my intention.

I understand completely what you are saying, and I was not trying in any way to begin a discussion about the world economic situation. You wrote "the bottom line returning to the original post centers on a company such as Fender attempting to remain viable" This is why I find this forum so interesting. The original post was about guitars from outer space, and a lighthearted concept to begin with.

I agree as well with your statement..."They are obliged to seek as broad a consumer base as possible, because their American built product, cost wise, can only appeal to a narrow market"

In the original post, the outer space guy said that if he had $1200.00 to spend on a guitar....(this would put him in that narrow market).... that he would buy a MIM or maybe a few Squires, but not the American Made product. This is where the fireworks display began. It had nothing to do with economy or company viability. It was about a guy that could afford to buy American and would choose not to.

I don't have a copy of Fender's financial reports with me, but I will go out on a limb and guess that they are doing ok. They are privately owned and even in today's economy they are a world leader in musical instrument sales. They have facilities in California, Arizona, Tennessee, New York, Rhode Island, Mexico, London, Germany, France, Brussels, Japan, Korea, and China.

My issue was only a rant about an American guy...able to afford an American product, but would prefer to buy it from another country. Its bad enough that we have priced ourselves out of being able to afford our own products, but its even worse when we can afford them but choose to buy them elsewhere.

Thanks
Noodles

As an American (and a union tradesman) I think that everyone for the most part is trying to get the best value for the dollar these days.In the 70s and 80s the "buy American" motto to me made it seem like the people behind the product knew it was an inferior product , but buy it anyways because it was made in America dammit.I am not saying that they neccesarily were inferior , but it appeared that way.It used to be that American made meant better, but over the years that changed somewhat.I think at some point people got tired of paying more money for a lesser quality (or equal) product , because people simply work too hard for their money.I am not gonna buy an inferior car and pay more money for it just because it was built in the USA.If GM wants my money,they need to put out a superior product ,price it reasonable and stand behind it.I personally have 3 American strats and although I tried some MIM , the MIA strats had what i wanted and I was willing to pay the extra money to get them.Not everyone feels the same way and there is nothing wrong with that.In my field of work, i do the best job i can do and let the finished product speak for itself.Some people are willing to pay extra for my work , others arent.But i certainly wouldnt want someone to buy the finished just because it was produced here , but because its one of the best product out there.

As you continue to spend more time here you will begin to appreciate the length, breadth and depth of the knowledge base brought to bear in this discussion. Contributors bring to the table much of what has formed them.

Where niki is concerned, this is most true, and you are going become quite impressed with what he has to offer, as things progress. We often digress, and have become quite used to these departures. In general, there is a great feeling of cameraderie here, a deep sense of individual national prides across the globe, and a fierce loyalty to the music and to the product.

[i][b]My issue was only a rant about an American guy...able to afford an American product, but would prefer to buy it from another country. Its bad enough that we have priced ourselves out of being able to afford our own products, but its even worse when we can afford them but choose to buy them elsewhere.[/b][/i]

Budglo puts a postscript to the above, a nod to our failed automobile industry, and his observation speaks for itself.

My first 'tour' South to Boca Raton this season will be 12/18-1/04. You can reach my email at ar27@nyu.edu.

Doc

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"Another day in paradise!"

Doc

First I would like to wish you a safe, wonderful trip down to Boca Raton. It is very beautiful there. Second I would like to thank all of you for allowing me to participate in your discussions. I think that although the exchanges have been very passionate, I have found that the stray from subject matter only seems to bring out the worst in me. My frustration with the responses instills sarcasm and debate on my part, and that is not what I would intend.

I think that I will look for a Stratocaster Forum that actually talks about Stratocasters, and save my lessons on global economy, electrical engineering, and Fenders compassion and humanitarian efforts to improve the plight of the Communist Chinese oppressed, for another venue.

You quoted my closing statement in your last post, and felt it necessary to remind me that budglo"s postscript and observation speaks for itself. This observation was in reference to the auto industry, again missing the subject that I was attempting to discuss. You didn't think that his purchase of 3 American Strats was important enough to acknowledge, although American Strats is what I had attempted to discuss since post #1.

In closing...and I'm sure that you guy's are relieved with my departure...I would like to leave with at least a couple of comments about American Made Stratocasters....Although we have discussed what you refer to as a "narrow market" for these guitars, Guitar Center has them on sale regularly for under $900.00. This is excellent bang for your buck. And Ninja, in the UK, with the Pound being worth $1.62 to our US $1.00, could buy one for around $600.00. This is exceptional value for your money!

I'm just not ready to "throw in the towel" on American manufacturing yet, and the "oh well we did this to ourselves" doesn't mean that we should just accept this and not try to repair it.

Thanks again
Noodles

Reply:

It is not unusual for us to stray from the initial posting, and I've seen little if any objection to this in my two + years here. This should not dissuade you from continuing to participate.

Where PRS is concerned, their MIA products new, historically are in the boutique category. I was simply reflecting on the quality of the product that was being turned out abroad by this particular manufacturer.

I don't know that there isn't any 'red blooded' citizen who wouldn't prefer to buy American. Unfortunately, the product is not always there, and if so, at the price points many are able to afford. I used to bust my buns to find American-made shoes. Might as well search for the golden fleece.

Your continued participation is encouraged.

Doc

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"Another day in paradise!"

Absolutely encouraged.

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No no and no

Thank you guy's very much!

Have a great day
Noodles

A postscript to this, and very much part of the issue, is patriotism vs profit on the part of US manufacturers. They need to stay alive. Government has recognized that the earth is flat. If you haven't read Tom Friedman on this you ought to. It's an eye opener.

Take a tour around a supermarket and look a labels. Note the labels. Do they read 'made in" or 'distributed by'?? With the latter, you may think it's a homegrown item, when likely it is not.

The number of foreign predoctoral students vs US in the dental program I teach in, compared to a mere 35 years ago would stun you. The university fancies itself a global nexus. We have outreach programs to multiple regions on the planet, and are planning a campus in Dubai,

Go easy on yourself, reach for the Pepto Bismol, and hang out here.

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"Another day in paradise!"

Doc

Reach for the Pepto I do find very humorous, thanks for the chuckle. I have been playing and collecting guitars for many years, and besides my wife and children, it is my greatest passion. I love Fender guitars and have several in my collection. Every piece that I have is displayed in my home and in pristine condition, there are no cased closet pieces, and most of them get played regularly. Each year I quest to add new pieces using excuses like "its my birthday" or "its my Christmas present" and for many years, this has worked very well.

I work in the Concrete Redi-Mix industry, and have been doing this for the past 35 years. This is a very fast paced industry, and workloads always had a backlog of at least 6 months. Orders were scheduled as much as 2 weeks in advance on a regular basis. About a year ago the bottom dropped out. Not a gradual reduction in workload, but from swamped to dead almost overnight. The construction industry as a whole in Florida is nonexistent right now. We don't expect the same overnight resurgence as the overnight collapse.

This situation is putting a damper on my "birthday" "Christmas" plans! This is difficult to swallow (bring on the Pepto) for an OCD guitar lover like myself. I'm sure that you have seen that So. Florida is second only to Las Vegas in economic collapse. And I am running out of acceptable guitar buying excuses.

Can I change the world on my own just by staying pissed off all the time? Probably not...but we can't just accept this and say Oh Well either! Dam It I need to buy more guitars!

Thanks again to you and Ninja for not being so thin skinned.
Noodles

Ninja

Since I'm getting all gooshy now (don't worry it won't last) I think you deserve your own credit where credit is due. I really do love the UK...believe it or not...If it weren't for bands like The Beatles, The Stones, Cream, Zepplin, Bowie, etc etc etc, rock and roll as we know it would not even exist.

I know that history tells us that these bands "stole" the blues from old time US players like Muddy Waters, Chuck Berry, Robert Johnson and such, although even if this was true, what the "British Invasion" did with US blues was the fire that lit up modern rock & roll.

If the "Make A Wish" Foundation could grant me only 1 wish before I have to leave, to be able to sit down with Clapton and play some blues would be that wish. I don't even have to think twice about it. Eric Clapton, by far is my favorite all around performer. I even have one of his guitars tattooed onto my arm.

Just wanted to share some lighthearted banter
Noodles