Nut replacement - pre-cut or custom?

Miami Mike · **Posted:** Wed Sep 16, 2009 1:03 pm

Ceallach wrote:

Some great information about nuts I didn't know in this thread. Many thanks to all involved. Very informative.

nikininja knows nuts! :wink:

nikininja · **Posted:** Wed Sep 16, 2009 1:06 pm

Miami Mike wrote:

Ceallach wrote:

Some great information about nuts I didn't know in this thread. Many thanks to all involved. Very informative.

nikininja knows nuts! :wink:

Mike we all know the line your leaving out is 'it takes one to know one'. :wink:

Miami Mike · **Posted:** Wed Sep 16, 2009 1:08 pm

nikininja wrote:

Miami Mike wrote:

Ceallach wrote:

Some great information about nuts I didn't know in this thread. Many thanks to all involved. Very informative.

nikininja knows nuts! :wink:

Mike we all know the line your leaving out is 'it takes one to know one'. :wink:

Actually I was thinking more like 'we all go nuts at some point'.

lomitus · **Joined:** Sat Aug 23, 2008 2:01 pm **Posts:** 1598

nikininja wrote:

Ah Lomitus you address here a common problem with music thats a stark reality with guitar as its a modular instrument as opposed to a linear instrument such as a piano. You get the same notes within a certain octave appearing at various points over the neck but never on the same string. Take E in the 2nd octave (8va) it appears at the 12th, 7th and 2nd frets. All strings have a different thickness and are tuned to a different tension resulting in a different timbre to the note. Couple this with the fact that the 4th/5th intervals along a guitar string are a rough approximation at best of their target notes. Guitar frets further complicate this. When you fret a note you stretch the string and make it sharper still. Its one reason why a well cut nut is of paramount importance, is to allieviate this problem somewhat. A high cut nut is great for slide where you dont fret but will send every note along the string sharp until your well up the fretboard. You'll notice it predominantly around frets 1-5 but trust me it happens well up to 9/10. Now a well cut nut still sends strings sharp but by a lesser degree because you still stretch the string, just not as much as on a high cut nut.

After a good few months with my head in my nether regions and pondering equal temperament, true temperament, guitar fretboards, compensated nuts and offsets. I have reached the conclusion that I should just play the thing. Its a minefield of a area, solve one problem create another. Your better of to not go down that rabbithole. The guy who got me worrying about my ear and perfect pitch some 18 years ago, has a tremendous ear. Not only can he hear pitch, he can hear timbre too. He can literaly listen to something and tell you where its played as well as the notes. He explained the whole perfect pitch misnomer to me after he'd spent so many years persuing it. You cant have perfect pitch for imperfect music played on imperfect instruments. You may hear notes and like him you may hear string diffference on something recorded 30 years ago. You will never hear intervals perfectly though as the intervals we use are not right.

I believe your hearing that difference in pitch between the same notes as well as the string timbre. Tune D at the 10th fret of the E string to the 5th fret of the A string. Get em bang on then check the 5th fret of the E to the open A. Thats one of the better examples but still shows up the fretboard problems well enough.

Hey Ninja,
I actually completely agree with what you've said here...you put more of the science in to the explanation than I was willing to in regards to the differences between strings sizes, tension, yadda, yadda, yadda. For as much as I rambled there though, that wasn't actually the point I was trying to get at...all of that babble was actually to elaborate on the issue about nut material...i.e. the softness of the human finger tip compared with metal frets, in regards to the whole plastic vs bone vs brass debate, etc..

If someone wanted to get really technical, there's even the issue of the way we tune instruments today and that it's a compromise so strictly speaking, something like a guitar is never perfectly in tune.. I forget the terminology here but to actually have an instrument in "perfect" tune, actually requires the instrument to be tuned a very specific way which will only allow the instrument to be played only in certain keys. The way we tunes instruments now isn't perfect but it allows an instrument to be played in a way that all keys sound "reasonably" in tune.

Ultimately though, you're absolutely right when you say "I have reached the conclusion that I should just play the thing". Trust me...I have no intentions of going down that road again myself..it'll really drive a person nuts! LOL!!! This was just more of a little logic puzzle for me more than anything else really...one of those passing curiosities (that I probably should have allowed to continue passing!).

One thing I've learned over the years is that while a few people (damned few) really do have very acute hearing and can hear these details, such as they guy you said you knew 18 years ago perhaps...most people who listen to your music don't have ears that are THAT good. When it comes to something like a guitar solo for example, I think that 98% of the people who listen to one are simply more concerned about how it makes them feel. As I've said elsewhere, personally I think that people who get that focused on things like perfection in tuning or technique or even issues such as speed and tone...I think these people are really missing the most important aspect of playing...feel and emotion. I think this is very analogous to photography really...a photographer can create an image that is "technically perfect"...the exposure is right on the money, the image is razor sharp, etc., but if the picture is boring to look at, the rest simply doesn't matter. The same thing with playing a guitar...a person can have absolutely flawless technique and perfection in tuning but if there's no "soul" if you will in the playing, who really cares?

Quote:

On nut slot widths, in my experience everyone cuts nuts a few sizes too big. I dont think i've ever seen a .009 nut file anywhere. My smallest is .012 and get no problems on the high E or B strings. I believe this is because the angle of the slot (back of the slot lower than front) creates a clean break point at the front of the slot. Rather than aiming to have the sides of the slot grip the nut.

I actually agree with this too (although I think you meant "grip the string) but I would like to simply point one little thing out for the benefit of others that there is a difference between a person who knows what they are doing who leaves a little "play" in the nut slot and a person who takes a proverbial chainsaw to a nut. I have seen a few instances where someone tried to file a nut, didn't know what they were doing and ended up butchering the nut so badly the instrument wasn't playable. Ever see guys with a chunk of electrical tape stuck down in the string slot because it was cut too low? You get my point :-)

As with other things we've discussed lately such as leveling frets, adjusting truss rods, doing setups, etc., filing a nut isn't that hard to do if you know what you are doing but it still requires a degree of skill to do it properly. Of course that skill does have to come from somewhere and as the saying goes, "there's a first time for everything". I would just encourage people to practice on something "cheap" before taking a file to a beloved or high value instrument

.

L8r,
Jim

nikininja · **Posted:** Thu Sep 17, 2009 2:43 am

Ah now were getting to the crux of the matter. Well to my mind the finger doesnt do anything but apply pressure on a fretboard. The nickel/silver (or whatever the stuffs called) fret is the string speak breakoff point on a fretted note. For that reason alone I dont think the finger has much to do with the sound other than the pressure appiled by it.

BTW if you want a good read on true temprament look at these pages.

http://www.lucytune.com/academic/manuscript_search.html

If you listen to the lullaby's it proves the point of technicaly perfetions ability to be boring. :lol:

Arcarix · **Joined:** Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:20 am **Posts:** 111

filerj

Quote:

I take it since I like the sound of my strat now, when I need a new nut just replace it with the same.

Yes, just have it adjusted to your strings by a competent tech.

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