[quote="Miami Mike"]So, some guitarists were talking about how a Strat with a middle pickup being RWRP might sound more "quacky" than non RWRP pups.

Then there's the other side of the coin.( We kicked this around on a thread way back.0 Do the 2/4 positions on a three-way yield a different tone than the 2/4 positions on a five-way? Remember, this in-between sound was discovered around 50 years ago, before the existence of the RWRP circuit. As a veteran of a '58 Strat who used those positions frequently in my work over 40 years ago, I never felt that the 5-way yielded the same tone. Of course, comparing vintage Strat pickups with those created 30 years later, there's no way of isolating the variable.

Trial and error should also prove that a heterogeneous trio of pickups could select for the tone from the 2/4 positions.

Quackiness, if I recall correctly, was not the purpose behind the RWRP circuit. It was, as already cited, an approach to hum cancelling while maintaining single coil 'truth.'

Doc

_________________
"Another day in paradise!"

Just because the wiring appears to be right, it doesn't mean that you can't have phase problems on guitars with 2 or more pickups..

Only just recently, I discovered that Fender pickups and Seymour Duncan pickups are "the other way round" to each other. On replacing a Fender pickup with an SD, I matched black to black and white to white. Result was pickups out of phase. Had to swap the SD pickup wires so that black went to white and vice versa. Pickups were then in phase..

I've read a couple posts on this forum stating that a quackier tone is achieved by dropping the mid pup lower than the neck and bridge (and then using positions 2 & 4). I don't have time to find and post these quotes that I speak of as I'm off to bed but I've never really been able to hear an actual increase in quack by dropping my mid pup. However I have been told my hearing is not great so what do I know?

Russ

_________________
'08 Amer. Dlx. Strat, '98 Amer. Std. Strat, '10 Squire CV Tele Custom, '96 Seagull S+6 Cedar
Deluxe Reverb RI, Tweed Blues Jr., Champion 110, Champion 600, Mustang I, Line 6 Vetta

Doc i think I can chime in on the 3-way VS 5 way switch. we in fact did this switch out on a friends axe( meaning i did the actual work ). the only variable was the switch. The 5 way came with it, so it was a simple swap. my friend and I, plus 3 other musicians we made listen to the recordings could tell no difference in blind tests. My buddy and i both agreed we heard no difference live. so in our experience, they did produce the same tone as the 3 way when it was stuck between positions.

I have never done that kind of A/B test with an RWRP VS non-RWRP pickup though.

_________________
I'm not an expert, but I play one on the internet.

Remember that I am working from the memory of a stock '58 Stratocaster with a 3-way switch, whose voice I have not heard in many years whose electronics were not standardized in comparison to present day production techniques. (For all I know, Ybarra might have wound the pickups in my old guitar as well as the '59 SRV bought in that pawn shop which eventually become his #1)

By the time the 5-way was introduced, the pickups were different, and when I eventually handled one, I didn't feel what I was hearing had the same quality of tone.

I could never get out of my guitar, what Mark Knopfler got out of his, and that is likely because at least twenty years of guitar evolution coupled with a unique playing style were at the heart of it all.

The observations as a result of your experimentation are certainly not in question here of course.

Doc

_________________
"Another day in paradise!"

Hehe, Yeah, not saying anything about the quality of the pickups or anything.

Just that on that particular guitar the only thing we changed was the switch. And that the new switch didn't affect how it sounded. just made it easier to keep in the 2/4 position.

I was only offering it out, because i think you can't accurately judge the effect of different switches by listening to 2 different guitars. i think it needs to be the same guitar, same pickups, same wires etc. that way the switch was the only variable. I wonder if anyone else has put in the 5 way switch on a guitar they bought that came as a 3 way, but with a 5 way as part of the case candy, and if they noticed any difference at all. i would imagine using a switch by a different company, or with a different construction technique might actually make a big difference in sound.

i have nothing to offer on the original question on this thread at all though.

_________________
I'm not an expert, but I play one on the internet.

[quote="Twelvebar"] Just that on that particular guitar the only thing we changed was the switch. And that the new switch didn't affect how it sounded. just made it easier to keep in the 2/4 position.

....some people 'stopped' the switch by putting adhesive tape across the slot once the 'sweet spot' was found. That limited your access to either the one or five position on the fly. You had to decide in advance, on what songs you wanted that guitar set as so and then careful jump those contacts to bridge the pickups before beginning. We were pioneers in the quest for tone back then, and it was fun.

_________________
"Another day in paradise!"

But lots of people do believe they can hear a difference between RW/RP and non-RW/RP and I hesitate to call them superstitious dupes. Audible noise interacts with the sound of what you're listening to - it masks some frequencies and heightens others. (An extreme example: you're watching TV and your air conditioner kicks on -- suddenly it seems like the tonal balance and level of the TV's audio has dropped, even though it hasn't changed.) So maybe they perceive the tone differently because of the noise.

The pickups' magnetic fields actually turn the strings into weak magnets while the strings are within the fields, and maybe a N/S/N magnet arrangement makes the strings physically vibrate a little different than a N/N/N arrangement.

Maybe there's some property of copper wire or magnetic fields that we're unaware of and therefore can't measure, so maybe there is some subtle difference between a signal made one way vs a signal made the other way.

So maybe they aren't crazy - I don't hear whatever they claim to hear, but I won't say it's impossible that there's some minor, subtle difference.

Tim of Bare Knuckle pickups states that there is definitely a discernable dfference between RW/RP and non.[/quote]

Lots of people believe lots of things. Lots of people "hear" lots of things. This is why we study science. You have to be able to explain what you observe. If you can't explain something, you might as well call it voodoo. And there is no property of copper wires or magnetic fields that we're unaware of and therefore can't measure. All of that was put to bed before the American Civil War by Maxwell.

So if somebody believes that there is an audible difference in sound attributable to RWRP pickup construction, explain why. Haven't seen an explanation yet.

_________________
James Burton Upgrade Telecaster
Hot Rodded Am Fat Strat Texas Special (now featuring Kinman Traditional II pickups)
Fender Blues Jr.
SWR California Blonde
Pedals Pedals Pedals

One thing that is often overlooked when questions of discernment arise, is that each of us hears things differently.

Take any group of 100 people, and 5 are going to be stone cold deaf, 20 are going to have poor hearing, 50 will be average, 20 good, 3 excellent, and 2 will have stellar hearing.

If there is a very minor difference in 2/4 positions with RWRP and Non-RWRP in the middle, it stands to reason that only some (maybe very few) will hear it.

_________________
Being able to play and enjoy music is a gift that's often taken for granted.

Don't leave home without it!