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Post subject: Re: Fans of Strat Plus and Strat Ultra
Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:10 pm
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John C wrote:
Other than that - I just retain things I read, and I've read all the books (Forrest White's book, George Fullerton's book, "The Stratocaster Chronicles", "Fender - The Real Story", even "The Black Strat"). I'm a marketing researcher - having a good memory comes in very handy for doing observational/ethnographic research. :wink:

John C, it is obvious that you know your stuff. I do research writing myself as part of my real job, so I can relate. Always had a keen interest in getting to the bottom of a story and get frustrated when I can't. Like you I have gleaned a lot from books and from personal conversations with Fender employees and marketing people, many who are no longer there and or retired. Sometimes I just get on the phone and call people, like when I was trying to understand the Lace Sensor phasing out for theFender Noiseless pickups. I just called and talked with Jeff Lace and took copious notes. A lot of what I learned came from just taking guitars apart too. But I am ever reminded, "Ah Grasshopper, (me) You have many more things to learn and many things to unlearn!" :lol: One good book I really like is A. R. Duchossoir's The Fender Stratocaster. I see there is a lot of disagreement in some of these books on Fender history and guitars too. OK no more hijacking!

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Post subject: Re: Fans of Strat Plus and Strat Ultra
Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:48 am
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John C wrote:
Credit where credit's due - the "N9xxxxx" used in 1990 comes from Xhefri's site. I remembered the E3/E4 numbers on the early Standards and Pluses from being around back then.
Other than that - I just retain things I read, and I've read all the books (Forrest White's book, George Fullerton's book, "The Stratocaster Chronicles", "Fender - The Real Story", even "The Black Strat"). I'm a marketing researcher - having a good memory comes in very handy for doing observational/ethnographic research. :wink:
Toppscore wrote:
John C, is this "bin" stuff written and video'd archived somewhere?
Do you feel that "the Fender 'BIN THEORY' for mistakes & errros" is a bit overused? Or, just "logical heresay". Toppscore 8)



No. This goes back to the Fender Stratocaster Plus, Plus Deluxe & Plus Ultra guitars,
as I have a 1990 "N0xxxxx" Plus Ultra and there are other "E9 NO N9" 1990 Strats.
My point is it "seems to me - IMHO" too many Fender mistakes/errors are
thrown under the "Fender-Has-Big-Bins-with-Multiple-Incorrect-Parts" BUS. Don't cha think :?:

Sure, I've tons of vintage amps and vintage guitars with mixed transitional parts, serial numbers, etc.
I've read many of the articles and documented employee experiences others have read.
I own/owned at least four super strange transitional amps/guitars that are for the books.
But, again, "JUST WONDERING", if we as a group should use caution when stating
Fender things/issues/strange-ness to be a "Fender-Factory-grab-it-from-the-bin" problem.

For the Strat Plus, Plus Deluxe & Plus Ultras that have E3/E4 SN#s & E9/N0/N9 SN#s,
those are very well documented. I just sold a Mint 1982 Fender Factory Telecaster
guitar with 1978 "S8xxxxx" SN#s on the head stock and in the neck cavity = FIVE YEARS OFF BASE :shock:

INSTEAD of the "BIN Theory", how about "MY THEORY" :?: :idea: :idea:

My Toppscore Theory :idea: :idea: :idea:
Fender used E9s in 1989 and had extra E9 SN# labels to be used during the beginning of 1990.
Someone saw E9s used in 1990, therefore incorrectly ordered "N9"s for 1990 guitars.
Someone else recognized that "N9"s were wrong and did not make sense as 1991 approached.
Finally someone at Fender ordered correct "NO"'s for 1990
which finally started the correct sequence for Fender's 1990s Decade with N1 for 1991.
I LOVE "My Theory" :idea: Don't you :?:
Gotta say, "My Theory" sure beats the thousands of "E9 N0 N9" lables
all mixed together in one BIG BIN theory. RIGHT? :lol:


Mistakes & Errors, for sure. Using-up 1989 inventory into 1990, for sure.
Ordering N9's incorrectly, for sure. ReOrdering "N0"s and getting it right, for sure.
But, to me none of this suggests an "open bin theory" with E9s N0s N9s labels
all thrown into, mixed together, stirred within a big "soup-pot"
allowing employees to grab what one will. Agree with me?

That is my Plus, Plus Deluxe & Plus Ultra "1990-Serial-Number-Screw-Up-Theory" :shock:

1960s Fender amp's chassis serial numbers, etc = another story for another thread.

Please do share with me if you like my above mention "E9 N0 N9" theory. I certainly do :!: :wink:
Toppscore 8)

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Post subject: Re: Fans of Strat Plus and Strat Ultra
Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 4:28 am
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TS

You have beat this dead horse enough - here and in other threads. Please start a thread - if you haven't already - that is devoted to these issues. That way anyone who is interested - and it is interesting - can check it out there. I get really frustrated reading through these off topic comments. This thread is long enough already! Rant over.


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Post subject: Re: Fans of Strat Plus and Strat Ultra
Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:03 am
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Would be good to create a thread dealing with serial numbers and bins! Interesting topic. Truth is, everything mentioned here is true. Fender did the "bin" thingy. One Fender employee told me, after 30+ years of working at Fender that back in the 1980 and after the move to Corona, that there was a lot of scrambling, mixing and matching, and poor record keeping. After taking a part 100s of guitars, I know the serial numbers can be 2 years off sometimes, especially with signature models like the EC Strats. Often more serial number decals were made than guitars too, and there was the "bin" issue, and there was the making of a neck to the point of being finished with swrial number places on it, then placed on a "rack" (LOL another bin thingy) and pulled off to be used on a body made weeks later, or weeks earlier. It was not all done in an organized, systematic way! That is why I never felt bad mixing a neck with a body, as long as they were within a year of each other—if it was good enough for Fender, I guess good enough for me!

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Post subject: Re: Fans of Strat Plus and Strat Ultra
Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:02 pm
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This is all what really surprised me with my Ultra, that it had an E9 neck but was assembled late '90. Since it was a new model for 1990 I'da thought they would start out with N0 ( or the erroneous N9) stickers on it. Not like they could just grab a Plus neck because of the polished locking tuners and the ebony. So with the 'bin' assembly line, somebody picked up whatever sticker was in the pile when making my neck.

So the questions for Fender sleuths like us: How far in advance of the Ultra line release date did they start putting together the bits and pieces, and how many Ultras did they project to make in comparison to the Plus models? Did my E9 neck get made relatively early in the process, hence the serial number, but then sit in the back of their ebony board bin for nearly a year before being fitted to the body?

I'm glad some of you have had opportunity to question the people who were on the spot and fish out some of the interesting details!


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Post subject: Re: Fans of Strat Plus and Strat Ultra
Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:37 pm
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cnsky54 wrote:
This is all what really surprised me with my Ultra, that it had an E9 neck but was assembled late '90. Since it was a new model for 1990 I'da thought they would start out with N0 ( or the erroneous N9) stickers on it. Not like they could just grab a Plus neck because of the polished locking tuners and the ebony. So with the 'bin' assembly line, somebody picked up whatever sticker was in the pile when making my neck.

So the questions for Fender sleuths like us: How far in advance of the Ultra line release date did they start putting together the bits and pieces, and how many Ultras did they project to make in comparison to the Plus models? Did my E9 neck get made relatively early in the process, hence the serial number, but then sit in the back of their ebony board bin for nearly a year before being fitted to the body?

I'm glad some of you have had opportunity to question the people who were on the spot and fish out some of the interesting details!

I am thinking that these were in the works in mid-1989. Quite a number of the early Ultra's had E9 serial numbers. A few of the first ones did not have "Ultra" written on the neck plate either. So I think your neck was in the works before 1990 OR It was near done in mid-1990 and the "bin effect" kicked in!!!! :shock:

Also some from around 1995-6 had serial numbers like SN5 or SN6 which is really weird as the SN serial number indicates a signature guitar! Such is the case with the Ultra neck I own below. I have rarely seen the N0 Serial numbers BTW.... I have owned maybe 3 over the years. Either E9 or N9 which are the most common. Also N9 was not used that much for 1999 because by then Fender was using the DN9 for many of the Deluxe Strats.

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Post subject: Re: Fans of Strat Plus and Strat Ultra
Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:31 pm
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Speaking of 1990 strats and E9 serial numbers, I just picked up a E9 Strat Plus with a neck date of Mar 8, 1990. I'll post pics soon. My camera battery is dead so might be cell phone pics.

I paid $165 for it, so don't expect much lol. The guy wanted $125 for the neck, with is maple with the schaller locking tuners, and the Wilkinson 2nd version roller nut and the neck plate and screws. The neck is in good shape, but the back of the neck was sanded, and the very end of the neck, past the 22nd fret has some grooves, and a few little marks on the head stock, but all and all not in too bad of shape.

So I buying that and he said he had the body too, and wanted $40 for that. It was repainted and has some stickers on it, and it doesn't have the pickguard and back plate, but has everything else. So I bought that too.

The top of the Lace Sensor pickups have been painted white, but maybe I can get that off.

So I'll either put it all back together and leave it like it is, or make it a little project.


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Post subject: Re: Fans of Strat Plus and Strat Ultra
Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:33 pm
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davidwhitson wrote:
TS

You have beat this dead horse enough - here and in other threads. Please start a thread - if you haven't already - that is devoted to these issues. That way anyone who is interested - and it is interesting - can check it out there. I get really frustrated reading through these off topic comments. This thread is long enough already! Rant over.


Don't get frustrated
Don't read it
Move on
WE are discussing Strat Plus series serial number(s)
You should start a thread
This is not a dead horse
This thread IS EXTREMELY INTERESTING
There are more thoughts and ideas and opinions than yours.

I have an ULTRA N0xxxxx. What do you have?

All of the Strat Plus series guitars are full of components,
numbers, various mfg supplies, lables, variations,
mis-representations, frauds/fakes, near-originals.
Right now this thread is on serial numbers.
At one time it was on roller nuts.
Then it was on Lace pickups.
It will evolve to something else . . . . the beauty of forums and threads. Right?

Start another thread and try to be a "micro managing controller" on that thread, or,
. . . . . just pass over posts you do not like. It is YOUR complaining that frustrates others.

Toppscore

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Post subject: Re: Fans of Strat Plus and Strat Ultra
Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:48 pm
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albala wrote:
TS, I don't mind you posing an alternate, reasonable theory.
I have both an 80's E# and a '90s N9# and any lore about them is interesting.
At the same time, car companies go to the 'parts bin' all the time when sharing parts over multiple product lines.


Thanks. This is how I & we can learn.

Personally, I have uncovered quite a bit of Fender History
by investigating and asking questions.

So, hopefully, my soon to share "1960 Super Amp" will open a great discussion
of interesting inquiry regarding factory installed circuitry from another amp.

Early this year I published findings regarding the Fender history
of the 1952-1954 Fender 5B6 1x15 Bassmans
and the several Fender transitions towards the 1957 5F6 4x10 Fender Bassmans.

Without asking, exploring, researching, interviewing, and analyzing; my observations
and efforts towards understanding and sharing 1950s Fender Bassman history would
not have materialize. I own a 1954 Fender 5D6 4x10 Bassman. Therefore,my interest.

I own a first year 1990 Fender Plus Ultra Stratocaster guitar. Therefore, my interest.

Everywhere, those like David who do not understand (and there are four others within
this forum), just complain, criticize, belittle, and selfishly try to promote their own
ideas or beliefs to be THE TRUTH, while new ideas & concepts can only come from
Leo or Jim or Paul or Bruce or someone they hardly know,
. . . are those forum members ignored.

I know about Fender factory bins.
All of the 1990 labels could have been mixed together. I sincerely doubt it.
I gave reasons why 1990 Strat Plus, Plus Deluxes & Plus Ultras have different serial numbers
within the 1990 year. Just not the BIN Theory for me within this particular issue.

Gosh. The Fender Forum's Five "micro controlling thread freaks"
have big typing hands and narrow minded thinking.

Nuff said. Toppscore

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Last edited by Toppscore on Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post subject: Re: Fans of Strat Plus and Strat Ultra
Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:51 pm
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davidwhitson wrote:
TS

You have beat this dead horse enough - here and in other threads. Please start a thread - if you haven't already - that is devoted to these issues. That way anyone who is interested - and it is interesting - can check it out there. I get really frustrated reading through these off topic comments. This thread is long enough already! Rant over.


+1

Seems TS is really intentionally running up his post count unnecessarily, and most are way too long winded anyway. :roll:

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Post subject: Re: Fans of Strat Plus and Strat Ultra
Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:58 pm
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Xhefri wrote:
Would be good to create a thread dealing with serial numbers and bins! Interesting topic. Truth is, everything mentioned here is true. Fender did the "bin" thingy. One Fender employee told me, after 30+ years of working at Fender that back in the 1980 and after the move to Corona, that there was a lot of scrambling, mixing and matching, and poor record keeping. After taking a part 100s of guitars, I know the serial numbers can be 2 years off sometimes, especially with signature models like the EC Strats. Often more serial number decals were made than guitars too, and there was the "bin" issue, and there was the making of a neck to the point of being finished with swrial number places on it, then placed on a "rack" (LOL another bin thingy) and pulled off to be used on a body made weeks later, or weeks earlier. It was not all done in an organized, systematic way! That is why I never felt bad mixing a neck with a body, as long as they were within a year of each other—if it was good enough for Fender, I guess good enough for me!



Xhefri. Lot of good info. Thanks.
There are lots of "BIN" mistakes within both amp & guitar production.
Simply reiterating that not all issues are BIN issues
and I feel label/serial numbers is not a BIN issue. That is all.
I expressed my Strat Plus BIN theory. I cannot say more. Toppscore :)

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Post subject: Re: Fans of Strat Plus and Strat Ultra
Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:05 pm
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shimmilou wrote:
davidwhitson wrote:
TS You have beat this dead horse enough - here and in other threads. Please start a thread - if you haven't already - that is devoted to these issues. That way anyone who is interested - and it is interesting - can check it out there. I get really frustrated reading through these off topic comments. This thread is long enough already! Rant over.

+1 Seems TS is really intentionally running up his post count unnecessarily, and most are way too long winded anyway. :roll:


+0
Seems Shimmy is really intentionally practicing typing skills and running up her thought count unnecessarily. And most content is without thought, anyway. :roll:
:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Post subject: Re: Fans of Strat Plus and Strat Ultra
Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:16 pm
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Back-on-track question: did Fender ever let an Ultra out the door with a colour different than the red transparent burst? I have a Plus Deluxe that has the exact shade of red that my Ultra has, but in Toppscore's photos his Ultra seems to be a brighter orangey-red with much more prominent maple-flame pattern (I know, may be camera effect, but my flame pattern is more muted). Were there variations or rule exceptions?


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Post subject: Re: Fans of Strat Plus and Strat Ultra
Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:19 pm
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Ok here's some pics of the strat plus I just got cheap. Feel free to laugh at it. I noticed too, the strap buttons aren't original but I think I have another set around.

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Post subject: Re: Fans of Strat Plus and Strat Ultra
Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:22 pm
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I am not laughing Jason that has the potential to become really awesome I think!..Hope you update once in awhile so I can see how the project is going!

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