Hello,

I am currently looking for some help/advice identifying an old Stratocaster that belongs to my dad, therefor i am posting on behalf of my father.
I figured this seems like the best place to post my problem so hopefully someone from fender can help!

Right, the current issue at hand is identifying this guitar so first off i shall give some back ground information of the guitar its self.

My father purchases this Fender Stratocaster during the mid 80's second hand in Scotland, UK and believed that i was a 1957 reissue manufactured between 82-84 at the Fullerton factory.
The original purchase date is unknown.

-The guitar is Fiesta Red and in great condition.
-Has a raised vintage bridge
-21 frets
-3 way switch (but seems loose and can rest in between 5 positions but not properly)
-Has numbering on front of headstock (unknown what this is - would be great if someone could explane)
-4 bolt neck plate with serial number: 13123
-Painted black at headstock where neck rod would be (wish for this to be explained too)
-writing on bridge


What i find strange about this for being a re-issue is that the serial number does not have a 'V' included, also the numbers on the headstock.
When searching the serial number online my dad has been told it belongs to an original 57, not a reissue!

Here are a few pictures of the guitar for better identification:



Serial: 13123


Strange numbers: PAT 2,573,254, 2,741,146


Can anyone tell me about the painted part here? is this normal?




Could someone also explane writing on bridge?


Raised bridge




Sorry for reflection from flash and room light



I apologize for posting so many pictures but i wish to be as accurate as i possibly can for anyone who may be able to help.

Thank you for your time, hopefully someone can help!

-Chris

it mite be a parts strat with a 57 neck plate and also a doctored 57ri neck but its hard to say with these pics we need pics of the neck pocket and neck heel and also pics of the body with the pick guard off and under the pick guard so we can see the pickups base plates

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Thanks for your response!
I understand the info i have given right now is a little hard to say if this guitar is genuine or not.. my dad bought this second hand in the mid 80's and since then has rarely even used it, never mind made any replacements so if things have been changed it has been with a previous owner.
That fact that for all the time my dad thought it was a 57 reissue seems a little weird if someone were to fake it to be an actual 57, especially the seller at that time since he was selling is saying it was the reissue.


Do you have any idea what the writing on the headstock means? and also was it common at that time for them to paint the black spot where the rod in the neck would be?

Also what do you mean when you are talking about this, do you mind explaining a little better?



I really wish to have a look inside the guitar but my dad does not really want to so i have to convince him more, i think he is more scared about taking the neck off that anything else.
If you did take the neck off, does this de-value it at all?

Anyway, say i did have a look inside, what exactly would i need to find to possibly prove the origins of this guitar? could you please explane that in some detail to me & pictures would be a great help!

Thanks for your reply, i really appreciate any help!

Here are a few pictures of the front of the guitar, click the links so you can view full size:

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l266/ ... G_6442.jpg

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l266/ ... G_6446.jpg

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l266/ ... G_6445.jpg

Hi shortymcsteve, welcome to the Forum.

Well, I can clear that bit up for you, at any rate. The numbers on the front of the headstock are Patent Numbers. For US patents (which these are) you can look them up on this website:

http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/srchnum.htm

As you'll discover by typing the numbers in, those are the patents for the Telecaster and Stratocaster bridges, respectively. Nothing mysterious about them appearing on a Strat headstock, as you'll see if you also Google those numbers. And they tell you nothing about the date or genuineness of the instrument.

As others are saying, we need to see inside the neck pocket and particularly the end of the neck heel (where you'll expect to find a date) to get much further with this.

Though I'd be amazed if that paint dates back to 1957. Don't get your hopes up...

Cheers - C

Im suprised too.. but since my dad has had it its rarely been used, most of them time just sitting in a case.
It has a few scrapes and dents but nothing serious.


Thanks for your into on the parent numbers but what are parent numbers for exactly? can you explane how the work?




Ah okay, i got confused with what you were talking about!
I agree it is strange, it was one of the first comments to my dad when i first seen the guitar a few years agow now since i have never really seen another Stratocaster with this.

Also the issue with the serial is strange too, that was one of my main concerns.. my dad explained that the guy he bought it from though it was a reissue so i wonder where that guy obtained it from and why i thought this.

I was trying to take pictures of the headstock for you but my DSLR ran out of charge so im currently charging it up to get some picture but may i ask why you wish for more pictures of the headstock? there is not much more writing to see really.. il have them up soon tho.



I have a question about taking off the neck.
What is the best way to do this? I own two Stratocasters myself but i have never removed their necks. I know people take them off to change the 'action' of their guitar so if i take it off how do i get it back in the original position and not edit the angle or performance of the neck?

Thanks

What does it say on the back of the tuners?

The writing on the saddles probably means that the guitar started life as a Tokai stratocaster copy. Look up "final prospec" though it is sometimes spelled with a "q" instead of a final "c."

If you find the typical Japanese codes in the neck pocket and on the heel of the neck, that would cinch the Japanese origin.

There's always a chance it is a Fender 57 reissue neck on a Tokai body, but it looks Japanese with a good fake Fender logo decal.

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My other guitar is a Strat.

Hi again shorty: not "parent" numbers; "patent" numbers.

Somebody who invents something (in this case Fender's bridge designs) registers it with the Patents Office in their own and perhaps other countries. It shows that they originated the design so anyone who copies it has to pay them a fee. It's how people make a living inventing stuff.

Enter your numbers into the website I linked to and when the patent comes up click the "images" button. There you will see Leo Fender's patents for his bridge designs.



Either loosen the strings right off or simply remove them. Then unscrew the four neck bolts in their plate on the back of the neck heel. Some people like to unscrew each one a little in turn; some do diagonal opposites.

When the screws are off just ease the neck out of it's cavity (the "neck pocket") vertically away from the face of the guitar. DON'T try and pull it in the direction away from the bridge - that way you will damage timber.

When you've seen what you need to see reverse the process. Before inserting the screws rub a little candle wax or ordinary soap onto the screw threads so they run in smoothly and don't damage the wood. DON'T over tighten them or you risk doing damage.

Simple as that.

Cheers - C

Clearly not a 57. Was hotrod red a colour option then? I thought it was black, white or burst. Its clearly a polyester paintjob, done sometime in the last 10 years or maybe in 78 but kept cased for 21 years. The plastic is far too new. The black painted truss cover dot is wrong for a 70's tokai, they were far more accurate than that until 82/83 ish.

Sorry.

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No no and no

Orvilleowner thanks for shedding a little more light on this, i looked up 'final prospec' and apparently that's what Tokai wrote on their re-makes at this time before changing it to 'tokai'.

Any idea what fender put on their bridges at this time?

On the back of the tuners it says 'DELUXE'


I did some research and this is what i found:

I tried to compare tokai 57 copy's parts with with 'real' 57's (how do i know those are real?)


This is apparently a real 57 which seems very, very similar.. most of it seems the exact same!
http://www.provide.net/~cfh/57strat.html

also another 57' (notice the truss rod endpoint on the head is painted the same, but it seems tokai also did this on SOME 57 copies)
http://www.gbase.com/gear/fender-strato ... nburst-18#


here are two tokai 57's copies:

http://www.japanvintageguitars.com/imag ... 20ST50.JPG

http://www.japanvintageguitars.com/imag ... 20ST60.jpg


also into on headstocks:
http://www.tokairegistry.com/tokai-info ... ender.html

So, what about the serial number? if this is a tokai then apparently the did not sure serial numbers like that (from what i have read)

Also does anyone have any idea what the neck rod of a 57' was like?

i found this and wish to compare for when i open the guitar up:
http://www.tokaiforum.com/viewtopic.php ... 5a9fe52c96


Also i guess this is useful..
http://www.guitarhq.com/fenddiff/repro_ ... ddles3.jpg



When i open this guitar up, what should i be looking for to prove it is a fender/tokai?

thanks for your help so far everyone! its been fantastic.

In 1957 all were 3 tone burst or Blonde unless they were special ordered and I think all special ordered finishes were Ash bodies.

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here is my take on this. it is possible that if this guitar is indeed vintage, than it could have been refinished at fender around '63 - '64, hence why the serial #s are on the decal and why it has the Fiesta Red finish. it could have had the original body damaged, sent back to fender, and had a whole new body put on the neck and the decal re-done. I have seen several examples of this. just a thought I'd like to contribute.

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IMO what you have there is a Tokia ST (not sure which 2 digit designation, most likely 60 or 80,) Springy sound.Or likely one of the guitars they actually sold as counterfeit Fenders. The Springy Sound line was what they sold those axes as when they started branding them Tokai.

If it is from before the 'Lawsuit Era' was settled up there is a chance it actually probably came with those decals and that backplate. If it is from the late 70's then there is a good chance of that. After the legal woes, they marketed the exact same thing, but with a Tokai decal, and no longer with duplicated serial numbers.

A friend had one, it wasn't red, but a burst. it looked exactly the same, right down to the bridge on yours. They are the only ones i have seen with the black trussrod plug.
I think you have one of the guitars that made fender go into partnership with Japanese manufacturers and form Fender japan.

It is likely just a springy sound with new decals, and a fake neckplate. If someone changed the decals, they may have forgotten the 'Original Contour Body' one, Tokai's said 'Oldies But Goodies" instead.

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I'm not an expert, but I play one on the internet.

Out of interest I printed out the patent information and the first patent number there 2573245 is for a combination bridge pickup assembly issued to C.L. Fender in 1951 The patent drwaing shows a Telecaster style bridge with a pickup in the assembly. The second is for a Strat style trem assembly issued in 1954.

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The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.

Thomas Jefferson