Less paint equals better tone?

TrapperDoo · **Joined:** Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:21 pm **Posts:** 53

SlapChop wrote:

Oh, yes, we do agree, Jay... "different" is not "better." I fear that too often SRV's wonkiest tone is used as the Unofficial Stratocaster Benchmark for Superior Sound, and when people are saying "better" or, even more ghastly "more vintage-y" tone, they actually mean, "more like that SRV record."

For my money, I wish more guitar players would learn about audio (since they are playing an electronic device), so they could discuss instrument sounds in terms of frequencies boosted or cut. Thinking of "tone" in this way kind of forces you you stop thinking of one sound as superior to another.... they're just different.

Well there is something to be said about resonance to the right kind of harmonics. Some guitars truly do "bloom" with the nice sounding odd harmonics and others not so much. I believe it was Joe Walsh who stated that the Les Paul he gave to Jimmy Page was as resonant and harmonically rich as a grand piano. Tones rich in even harmonics generally are not pleasing to the human ear. I believe this is why EVH de-tuned his B-string slightly. The guitar sounded $@!&#* when he played at high gain settings otherwise (too many evens).

orvilleowner · **Posted:** Sat Jul 11, 2009 1:41 pm

TrapperDoo wrote:

I believe this is why EVH de-tuned his B-string slightly. The guitar sounded $@!&#* when he played at high gain settings otherwise (too many evens).

"de-tuned"? Do you mean he had it slightly flat?

I find having the high strings (the skinny B and E) slightly sharp is more pleasing to the ear.

I am told that piano tuners do that as well: have the highest notes slightly sharp.

nikininja · **Posted:** Sat Jul 11, 2009 2:00 pm

orvilleowner wrote:

TrapperDoo wrote:

I believe this is why EVH de-tuned his B-string slightly. The guitar sounded $@!&#* when he played at high gain settings otherwise (too many evens).

"de-tuned"? Do you mean he had it slightly flat?

I find having the high strings (the skinny B and E) slightly sharp is more pleasing to the ear.

I am told that piano tuners do that as well: have the highest notes slightly sharp.

I was always under the impression that piano tuners were slightly flat at the top end. You can hardly hear it over 1 8va, but on 2 8va C to C the top C is noticably flat. Perhaps i've only experienced badly tuned piano's :oops:

Blertles · **Posted:** Sat Jul 11, 2009 3:33 pm

BigJay wrote:

Blertles wrote:

Not to dismiss Mike's credibility also- but think of it this way. Do you eat out at a restaurant because you think the chef is a genius? or have you thought that you could cook the same delicious meal at home for a third of the price? because I bet your bottom dollar my deluxe sounds little different acoustically to a mim, your strats, or a CS.

I get your point about CS representative marketing to yuppies. Personally, I dont get that impression from Mike on his thread on these boards. I also believe the Custom Shop builds vastly superior guitars to MIMs regardless of a particular representatives potential to market to us yuppies. ( I dont drive an Audi TT though. I drive a VW Jetta TDI, though, an equally yuppy car :wink:

)

I dont really understand your point in the quote above, though. Are you suggesting there is no reason to have someone, even Custom Shop, build a guitar for you when you can do it cheaper yourself?

Well yes you can. I can take an order to my local luthier with a wish list and he will make exactly what I want. all be it not a fender I will add. But I will say that he and only himself will make it, and it wont be made on a production line. for the same service, CS will charge the punter like a wounded bull. Dont you think the CS can sell a relic 60's for $10k in my country and influence on the resale value of older instruments too? Ill leave that for a conspiracy theorist to think about. But getting back to it, for the price difference, I cant justify an embriodered case, a certificate and a CS logo. I mean, I may find better value in an late '80's plus or standard. Purely because thats what I want, and I base that on a resale value compared to a cs instrument of that vintage.

TrapperDoo · **Joined:** Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:21 pm **Posts:** 53

orvilleowner wrote:

TrapperDoo wrote:

I believe this is why EVH de-tuned his B-string slightly. The guitar sounded $@!&#* when he played at high gain settings otherwise (too many evens).

"de-tuned"? Do you mean he had it slightly flat?

I find having the high strings (the skinny B and E) slightly sharp is more pleasing to the ear.

I am told that piano tuners do that as well: have the highest notes slightly sharp.

Yeah-I heard he tuned his B-string slightly flat. Read it somewhere. It may depend on the amplifier your using too. Maybe in some cases slightly sharp is whats needed to optimize along with the harmonic response of the amplifier. Sure helps to have a sensitive ear.

Blertles · **Posted:** Sat Jul 11, 2009 3:55 pm

BigJay wrote:

Blertles wrote:

BigJay wrote:

Blertles wrote:

Not to dismiss Mike's credibility also- but think of it this way. Do you eat out at a restaurant because you think the chef is a genius? or have you thought that you could cook the same delicious meal at home for a third of the price? because I bet your bottom dollar my deluxe sounds little different acoustically to a mim, your strats, or a CS.

I get your point about CS representative marketing to yuppies. Personally, I dont get that impression from Mike on his thread on these boards. I also believe the Custom Shop builds vastly superior guitars to MIMs regardless of a particular representatives potential to market to us yuppies. ( I dont drive an Audi TT though. I drive a VW Jetta TDI, though, an equally yuppy car :wink:

)

I dont really understand your point in the quote above, though. Are you suggesting there is no reason to have someone, even Custom Shop, build a guitar for you when you can do it cheaper yourself?

Well yes you can. I can take an order to my local luthier with a wish list and he will make exactly what I want. all be it not a fender I will add. But I will say that he and only himself will make it, and it wont be made on a production line. for the same service, CS will charge the punter like a wounded bull. Dont you think the CS can sell a relic 60's for $10k in my country and influence on the resale value of older instruments too? Ill leave that for a conspiracy theorist to think about. But getting back to it, for the price difference, I cant justify an embriodered case, a certificate and a CS logo. I mean, I may find better value in an late '80's plus or standard.

Cant argue with you on these points, Blertles. I assembled my own. Its a blend of various grades. I'd say its about the level of an AmDlx, but for much less cost. Plus, its my custom job, making it more valuable to me.

Still, you have to appreciate the expertise in the CS, dont you?

They are a talented bunch and they make great instruments, and I loved looking at the glossy photos in the frontline mag and in magazines as a kid. But you see where Im at, you made yours to your specs and your specs only, and you saved yourself in the wallet. Plus, its yours, and thats whats special to you.

On the subject of cars, I bought a new second hand car last week and Im off to pick it up now. Im also wearing a bright blue shirt and I have product in my hair- all be it im a way off fifty though

but ill catch you on this thread later if your still around. have a great day/night where ever you all are

orvilleowner · **Posted:** Sat Jul 11, 2009 4:34 pm

nikininja wrote:

I was always under the impression that piano tuners were slightly flat at the top end. You can hardly hear it over 1 8va, but on 2 8va C to C the top C is noticably flat. Perhaps i've only experienced badly tuned piano's :oops:

I don't know what pianos you were playing, but I'm pretty sure that piano tuners "sweeten" the top end.

I have found that I like my guitar's top end a little sharp too.

Maybe it's because after tuning up, with the B & E a little sharp, and then after banging out a couple of songs those strings end up going a little flat to the right notes!

paisley strat · **Joined:** Sat Jul 28, 2007 8:34 am **Posts:** 821

I gotta add my 2 cents after spending the better part of 30 minutes ( I read slow)reading this thread.
Everybody is talking about "tone" like there is some magical, singular tone that every player who wields a Fender guitar should be after.
I own several guitars because I like guitars that can create a "specific" tone that I hear in my head. Some guitars I want to sound rich and full, some more thin and trebly. Some I want to sound raspy and raw, some smooth and luscious. I understand that the classical musician who plays cello or violin may disagree, and feel that the tone come from their fingers. It sure does. And rightly so. But I play an ELECTRIC guitar. It is different.
My sounds come from all the parts of the signal chain, and each effects tone in a different way. Why would I want to limit myself to one perfect tone? After all the hype about wood, paint, metal and plastic is over, it is all about the sound I hear in my head, and can I reproduce it with my arsenal(weapon reference)of equipment, and my HANDS. I love the tone of my acoustic guitar ringing in my back yard. That is about as pure as it gets. I also love the sound of my Strat going thru my 1970s Vox stereo fuzz wah, into my analog delay, thru my pedalboard and into my overdriven Marshall. It sounds nothing like a guitar!! No tone whatsoever!! That is the point!!
The other day, i was on my way to work and listened to 4 CDs with;
Pantera- Cowboys from Hell
Johnny Cash- a greatist hits collection
BB King- The thrill is gone/Gospel Praises
Miles Davis with John Coltrane- All of You (live)
All great "tone" guys, all different, all worth listening to.

orvilleowner · **Posted:** Sat Jul 11, 2009 7:57 pm

paisley strat wrote:

Everybody is talking about "tone" like there is some magical, singular tone that every player who wields a Fender guitar should be after.

It does sound that way, doesn't it? It's curious.

The "tone" I've heard from some guys, I wouldn't wish upon my worst enemy!

The "signal chain" concept is one I've followed. But my signal chain hasn't changed in 31 years and seems to be a lot like yours. Namely: guitar to a wah-wah to a Marshall.

WoodyTone · **Joined:** Mon Jul 06, 2009 11:15 am **Posts:** 22

IMO, tone is everything in your signal chain down to the individual components PLUS your hands/attitude, which is at least 50% of the equation -- more if you're a darn good player. One example of this is a recent post I did on my blog about which amp EVH used for Michael Jackson's song Beat It. The bottom line is no one knows for sure -- and even though it doesn't sound like EVH's regular "tone," you know by the style and "tone" that it's him in the first 1 second of the lead!

Here's the whole Beat It post if you're interested:
http://www.woodytone.com/2009/07/08/wha ... n-beat-it/

Many people have said that EVH and other greats have sounded like themselves no matter what they are plugged into. Maybe I should amend my equation to: the better you are as a player, the more your hands account for your tone.

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