I would have to agree with you 100% on that. A lot of your tube "feel" does come from the power section.

But if you are comparing tone from just a plain solid state amp (not hybrid), to the same amp with a tube pedal in front of it, the tone is going to be closer to a tube sound the second time. Its never ever going to be remotely close to a genuine tube amp, but it will be at least similar. I hope that this paragraph wasn't confusing. I kind of worded things awfully.

If a person did not want to sell their solid state amp, but wanted a more "natural" feeling amp, then I would definately recommend checking out a tube pedal. But if you have the option of upgrading to a completely different amp, obviously go for tubes, cause its the only way to get the tube "feel" genuinely.

I haven't looked at those amps yet. I should check them out. Its an interesting idea, indeed.

Hi Ben: yep, I think that's totally valid.

And as far as moderate priced upgrades are concerned, I also agree with Niki that the hybrid Marshall Valvestate is pretty good at that level. That's my practice amp, these days...

Cheers - C

Ben i agree with you totaly mate nothing sounds like a all rocking maxed out power section of a all valve amp. My main concern is that the majority of solidstate trouncers wouldnt know the sound if it gave them breakfast in bed. I've fallen for the 'all valve tone' lie in the past only to find that the majority of valve amps use diode clipping for their gain sounds (particularly high gain amps). As to valve pedals warming tone i honestly dont know. I remain open minded to the idea but sceptical, as i said previously does having a analogue pedal infront of a valve amp solidstate the tone? I honestly think that solidstate amps are much maligned these days and the majority of new designed valve amps are undeservedly praised.

Ben its all good mate, open frank disscusion is a key to knowledge, I didnt take any offense at your points. Infact i enjoy people that dont think like i do. If you can teach me something all the better in my book.

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No no and no

Hi Ceri

I am one of those people that use a all tube setup and rarely get the power amp breathing. This is why I probably feel the tube preamp is the most important piece in your signal chain. Especially at practice levels. It sets your gain and tone.

When letting the power amp do the grunt work, the preamp becomes less important, and is needed as a eq only really. I loved the way the mesa raged cranked, and the pre was on a clean channel . My ears, even at only 15 watts, could only take it for a couple minutes. In fact I am amazed at the small amount of volume drop off, going from 50 to 15 watts. Noticable, but not huge.

My mesa 50/50 has a low power switch that can take it to 15 watts per side. I have turned one side all the way down, to get a cranked 15 watt 2x12 sound. Of coarse to make it sound good, I had to completely change my settings and levels in the preamp, since the power amp becomes the distortion. The end result was never more satisfying to me, while very cool, no more so than the turned down full clean power from the power amp and more extreme settings in the preamp and tone controls. Whatever the case, what sounds good at practice levels, can sound terrible when turned up loud and vise versa. My practice settings, don't work good when just cranking the power amp up, I usually have to turn down the gain and bass, and "flatten" the eq's more.

It is certainly a luxury to have the ability to do it both ways though

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Guitars:
1. mid 70's Ventura MIJ Gibson l6-s clone (Pre-lawsuit) in Black with Rosewood FB and EMG 81 BR/ 85 Neck
2. ESP KH2 Neck Thru
3. 2008 Am Std Strat in 3 tone sunburst

- Line 6 Spider iii head into a (not Line 6) cabinet with old EVM 12L's in it.
- My effects are a single Korg multi-effects unit which I use slightly. The Korg is used (mainly) for lightly shading in OD, compression, and EQ.
It all works real well together, providing a nice palette of warm tones and would do Robin Trower proud. For metal, it is the '76 Gibson SG Std into the Line 6 straight.

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Laughing out loud with fear and hope, I have a desperate plan ...

firstrat, I am very interested in what you say, and thank you for describing it so clearly.

Every time someone puts this argument one way that sounds convincing to me along comes someone else with an equally reasonable case for the opposite.

In the end, the only thing I know for sure is that setting my proper Marshall tube amp a certain way gives me a feeling like bungee jumping off Niagara Falls!

The rest is about trying to recreate some of that at humane volume levels with pedals through the practice amp. Getting better... but in truth, not very close. Oh well.

Most envious of your Mesa, by the way. Only time I've had the honor of playing Mesas is in demo booths in shops. Oh well (again!).

Cheers - C

Hey Ceri,

Most will disagree with me, but those are the same people who will never find a suitable practice setup, because you're never going to get a cranked 6l6 or el34 power section tone out of smaller power tubes. To me they sound closer to a saturated 12ax7 anyway. So I "emulate" that sound saturating preamp tubes and more extreme eq settings. Is is exactly right...no. Is it as thick as a cranked 6l6 power section...no. But very satisfying to me, and very close for low volumes, and I don't really need a separate practice amp, though I still have one that I use. Portability is a very ligitamate need for almost any guitarist. My Rack, into a marshall 4x12 is not very portable, without another person to help.

Also, when I switched from a solid state power amp to my mesa, even at practice levels, there were benefits. My sound still took on a bigger and fuller sound, even though I am not pushing it. I do add some serious bass to thicken up my practice tone, and the speakers seem to get moving with that...very responsive and tight bass. Perfect for that tight chugging on the low E string.

I know exactly what you are talking about with your Marshall. I found the exact same thing. Again, it comes down to the preamp. Marshall preamps alone just don't have enough gain for me and the eq's do not compensate well enough for low volume. So at low volumes I have never liked Marshall heads that I have tried. This was a surprize to me, because all of my favorite sounds have come from guys using Marshalls. My take on it was this. They are designed and shine when cranked up. I have heard that Marshall have addressed this and some of their new heads have much more gain in the preamps, but I have not tried one in years to know.

As far as trying to get that sound with pedals and a practice amp, I think you will be hard pressed. I think if you found a great high gain tube preamp, you would find that you can now find sweet spot at low volumes in the Marshall and the practice amp. It sounds to me like you are one good tube preamp away from tone heaven. I gave up on pedals in the early 90's. I even like the distortion channels in solid state amps better than most pedals. However, the difference between pedals and preamps is now being blurred. You can get pedal tube preamps now.

Oh, one other thing I do at practice levels is use a touch of compression to simulate the natural compression of saturated power tubes. Just a bit of it though, too much is a bad thing. I like the ratio at just 1.5:1 with no extra gain from it. This allows me to get the sustain while retaining punch and responsiveness. Remember, compressors should be the first thing in your chain after the guitar. When used properly, they help tremedously at low volume, and can help your guitar sound more balanced, and allow each note to be heard better in chords and soloing.

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Guitars:
1. mid 70's Ventura MIJ Gibson l6-s clone (Pre-lawsuit) in Black with Rosewood FB and EMG 81 BR/ 85 Neck
2. ESP KH2 Neck Thru
3. 2008 Am Std Strat in 3 tone sunburst

I went on a long search after arriving in New York City with no car and Marshall half stack. I thought that I may be able to capture some of these tones with a good combo and over the last few months have gone through about ten of them. The unfortunate fact is that after much hassle and wasted dollars I am back to a 100 watt Marshall half stack. Getting it around is an epic pain but it's worth it because if you can't get the sound in your head to come alive there really is no point.

As for effects, I realized that (like most things) it's better to save and get the right ones the first time. I continue my religious free endorsement of Fulltone. They really are the best of the best so as of now my pedal board has the Clyde Wah leading into a Deja-Vibe to an OCD and ending with a Fatboost2.

So... If any of you are visiting and happen to see some sucker pushing a JCM900 with 1960 4x12 cabinet under it through the streets of Manhattan just smile and wave.

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Custom Shop '59 Strat with John Cruz Master Design Pickups
Vibro King
Fulltone Clyde>Deja-Vibe>TS-808>TS-9>Boss Tuner

I like my Marshall 4x12 cab too. At home though, I couldnt see myself having to drag it around. I'll look for you around Manhattan

You should have seen me wheeling this thing from the East Village to Kenny's Castaway last night!

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Custom Shop '59 Strat with John Cruz Master Design Pickups
Vibro King
Fulltone Clyde>Deja-Vibe>TS-808>TS-9>Boss Tuner

Picked up a 4x12 1960a cab a while back and it barely fit in the truck of my Sebring. I dont even think the 1960b would have gotten in.

If you ever play at Kennys on Saturdays let me know, I'll come check you out.

Will do- I'm in 4 bands here so I'm sure that there is a Saturday date coming up soon!

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Custom Shop '59 Strat with John Cruz Master Design Pickups
Vibro King
Fulltone Clyde>Deja-Vibe>TS-808>TS-9>Boss Tuner

4 bands, damn, I cant even find the time to be in one, or the lack of talent

Why so many 1960 and 1960a cabs? I like the 1960V and 1960av

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Guitars:
1. mid 70's Ventura MIJ Gibson l6-s clone (Pre-lawsuit) in Black with Rosewood FB and EMG 81 BR/ 85 Neck
2. ESP KH2 Neck Thru
3. 2008 Am Std Strat in 3 tone sunburst

different speaker configurations. The 1960A is G75T's with an angled top The 1960B is the same config with a flat front. Theres various variations with greenbacks, vintage 30's and many others that i cant remember.

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No no and no