Is the LSR nut the same as the Wilkinson Roller nut?

It plays in realplayer. For traditional setup to my mind springs need to be parallel. Slanting them only works for flush to body set trems. Basicaly the video explains how to set the claw to give optimum tuning to smooth travel. It explains it far better than i could here.

The LSR isnt too far away from the wilkinson rollernut.
To my mind firstrat had a valid point, no strat trem is going to perform like a floydrose or kahler.

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Tremolo Arm, just copy and paste Nikitaninja's link to your browser. T worked for me and opened realplayer automatically. Good video.

The specs may not be he same for the LSR and the Wilkinson. I have the Wilkinson, and according to the owner's manual the maximum string gauge to be used, from treble side to bass, is .011, .014, .018, .028, .038, & .049. I haven't tried the .011 gauge on my Strat, but I may in the future. Hope that helps.

I finally managed to view the video. I also found some other videos by Carl - fascinating!

I followed the guide step by step, but that did not solve the problem for me.
A slight use of teh whammy bar will make the pitch come back sharp. Clearly, the strings are getting hang up somewhere, because a quick bend on the problem strings will bring the pitch back perfect.

I am pretty sure it's not the LSR. The bridge looks also fine. Could it be the saddles? But then again they are new... How can I tell if the saddles need attention? Where are the typical problem points for saddles?

I noticed in one of teh videos, Carl speaks of tieing the saddles together with a small metal wire to make them one solid block. Does anyone do that?

Thats more of a resonance thing and unproved at that. Gladedale telecaster saddle makers in the know make a point of their saddles being seperated.

Well you've tried everything we can advise you on over a computer terminal, its finaly time to bite the bullet and pay to have the guitar set up. Theres only so much you can diagnoze without getting your hands on the guitar.

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Sorry we couldn't be of more help, Tremolo. If you get the guitar setup, ask to sit in and watch what the guy does so you can learn.

I think I'll take my strat for a setup. I like the way Carl Verheyen showed in the video how he has the tremolo set to bend the Open G string sharp to B flat. I'd like to do it myself, but I'm not sure where to start. How do I get that much range of motion to pull sharp? Anyone? Nikininja?

You just keep loosening the trem claw until you can pull up the 3 semitones on the G. In theory the D string should pull up just slightly sharp of 3 semitones too . The beauty in Mr Veheyen's method is the balance of the claw/springs to the strings. It really takes some time to balance it up it takes me on average an hour to get about right the i leave the cover off and keep a screwdriver handy for a few days while i fine it for a few days. The secret really is getting that 5th fret barre to flatten to the 4th fret as accurately as possible.

The trem will sit high to get the 3semitone up, mine have a 1/4" gap at the back. Then as you know its all down to keeping the nut slots clean and the windings on the tuning peg to a minimum. I can hand on heart say that its paid off in tuning stability alone. The last 5 times my guitars have been out of the house they have remained at concert pitch despite a hour+ drive.

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You could be looking in the wrong place. My '08 AM. Strat the E and A string's go out of tune every time I use the whammy (and believe me i only use it lightly) . After many weeks of going crazy I found out there was a little play in the tuner gear's . So my next move is to get locking tuners.

An update on the situation...

Convinced that the trouble was caused by the saddles, I proceeded to install Graph Tech ones. I had always wanted to try this material so took the plunge and ordered a set.

After installing them (meaning a fresh set of strings), I proceeded to test their integration. Verdict: The guitar stays in tune even with the most aggressive bends... BUT... a minor touch of the whammy bar and several strings (particularly the G) go out of tune (return sharp). AGAIN! Arghhh!

I think I am going crazy with this thing. I mean I purposely bought a Strat with locking tuners, LSR and (now) Graph Tech saddles, so that I can stay in tune, but this issue is just like a stubborn weed on a beautiful plant.

So by the process of elimination, I know know that the problem is NOT in the saddles.... What else can it be? I am determined to see this through. I can't accept defeat now!

Wow, what a fascinating head scratcher of a thread!

I tend to agree with Niki that it's gone beyond what can be dealt with over the internet - but let's keep trying anyway!

tremolo arm (that's an ironic username right now, isn't it?), you simply have to work through every possibility one by one until you find what the issue is. There is friction in the system somewhere, the only question is finding where.

Assuming you have your new saddles sitting solidly on both of each one's height screws (which I'm sure you have) then we know the problem ain't there. And I presume you've checked the intonation screws and springs to make sure there's no movement there - very unlikely since you've swapped them all out.

Nut; tuners; stringtree; pivot posts; slippage somewhere in the spring department. That's all that's left!

Try lifting the strings clear of the stringtree(s), retune and play as normal. Still got the problem? Then that's that one eliminated.

You say you're sure it's not the nut - but have you actually carried out the mainenance previously suggested? New or not - what have you got to lose? (Incidentally, all the experience here suggests that it is only when you get to 11s that issues start occuring with string size. Some Forum users get away with 11s on a roller nut, some don't.)

Tuners: you have the regulation one or two turns of string on those lockers of yours, right? All screws round the back nice and secure? No give in the posts when you try to wiggle them?

Springs cavity: the springs are all nicely seated in their holes on the block? Tried swapping the springs with another guitar to rule out metal fatigue - very unlikely, I know (listen for creaking noises from the springs when you move the trem arm). Are those claw screws extended rather far out of the wood - could there be some play there? (That one is tickling my fancy...) Give 'em a prod and make sure you can't wiggle those screws.

If everything above is right - then it HAS to be the pivot points: there's simply nothing left.

So I suppose the posts themselves are nice and secure in their bushings, which in turn are firm into the timber? No give there at all? The knife edges are addressing the posts at the right angle - nothing extreme? The posts are set to the same heights? You've examined for wear on the posts and found nothing - but still, try turning them 180 degrees so you KNOW the metalwork is untainted. You'll then need to reset your intonation for the slight change in bridge position.

Remember, wear doesn't have to be very much to compromise the system. Supposedly Eddie van Halen has his entire bridge and posts swapped out every two weeks! A couple of replacement posts wouldn't be the end of the world - given that you've already bought new saddles.

Finally, even though you said you've done it already, lubricate the heck out of everything once more. Either graphite, or Vaseline - or some people use a mixture of both (ew - strange picture... http://www.vaseline.co.uk/Carousel.aspx ... 4wodFBxdMg ).

One very last possible variable. This sounds insulting, I know, so forgive me. But I presume you can use a Fender type whammy on other guitars without problems - right? It's just this particular Strat that's presenting the difficulties? Player error is tactfully at the very bottom of my list...

That's EVERYTHING I can think of.

Itching to find out what it turns out to be in the end...

Good luck - C

Just a thought ... Is the guitar set to float? And - if so - maybe you would have more success if it was set flush (no float)?

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Laughing out loud with fear and hope, I have a desperate plan ...

Wow Ceri, thank you for spending so much time on this in-depth analysis! I really appreciate it!

And yes, you are right - Tremolo Arm is a bit of an ironic choice of user name given the circumstances... but then again it was chosen way before I ever encountered this issue...

I had already followed some of the advice you give and I will follow the other stuff you suggest, particularly the claw screws... although they are already quite "in" the wood...

I will report back once I have gone through this inspection.

Thanks

No probs. It's the puzzle aspect of it that makes it interesting.

Good luck - C

OK, another update on the story after playing with the set up last night.

I decided to acoustically check if the nut (which is LSR) plays a factor in retaining the strings and thus preventing them to come back to pitch.

Here I open a bracket. Some of you who had defective nuts (don't laugh too loud at this stage), would have noticed that when tuning a guitar, the strings would occasionally make a "ping" noise, which generally indicates that he nut grooves are too narrow and the string is “released after been trapped”. A more extreme way to make this test is to push down on the string BEHIND the nut (a technique often used by John Mayer by the way). Obviously you have to have a Strat without string trees to do that. Now, if the nut is defective i.e. retaining the strings, you would either hear the ping noise or the string would go out of tune after the push down. Close the bracket.

A long way to describe that I run this test and the strings returned back to pitch perfectly, which suggested that my original problem (pitch going sharp after vibrato use) was not caused by the LSR (this was my most distant suspicion anyway as I could also clearly see that there was room on either side of the each string) and also safe to assume that the problem was not in the tuners....

I then proceeded to make some tests with the bridge by lowering and raising the bridge plate, as well as making alterations to the spring tension (by firstly using a different set of springs and then by altering the tension of the bridge through the claws.

My observations were the following:


- There was no effect in changing the springs (although I discovered that black springs have much less tension than silver ones - interesting...
- There was no effect in raising or lowering the bridge plate height.

By the way, when I say “no change”, I mean that the problem of the pitch returning sharp after tremolo use was still there.

What I also noticed was that after use of tremolo, a bend would normally return the string to perfect pitch. In fact, it appeared as if a bend of ANY string would return the pitch near perfect, which seemed to suggest that the problem was not isolated to any individual string.

The only alteration that did seem to make an effect was the alteration in tension, whereby I loosened the claw screws, resulting in the back part of the bridge to raise higher (and also the tremolo to feel cushier). When I did this and used the tremolo, the pitch still returned sharper, but much less so compared to when the spring tension was stronger. Interesting…

By the way, not sure if I mentioned that I use 3 springs (fitted parallel on 1st, 3rd and 5th position).

I played the guitar like this for an hour or so with frequent (but light) tremolo use and acoustically it sounded “right”, as well as correct from a pitch perspective. In fact, the only way I was able to tell that the pitch had gone slightly sharp was when I re-checked with the electronic tuner and the change was indeed small, but nevertheless evident. What was interesting was that not all strings had gone sharper. The effect was evident on high E, B and G, but not on D, A or E.

So now I am asking myself – have I found the sweet spot or should I continue tinkering pursuing a more stable set up? I am pondering with the idea to remove one more spring (leaving just 2) and see what that does to the set up, but my worry is that double stop bends would sound bad due to the excessive change in the pitch of the unbent string (due to bridge movement). Also, breaking a string with this set up would send the whole tuning out of the window.

I might do a few more tweaks tonight and will report back if I discover anything…
In the meantime I would love to hear if you have any comments.

Hi tremolo arm: well, you've had everything I can think of, for sure. But:

Dunno, but I wonder if that is indicating that the angle at which the trem plate's knife points address their posts is indeed the issue? Or at least that the problem is located at that point of contact. Did you try turning the posts right round, to be sure it's fresh metal that is forming the bearing?

Anyway. Please carry on posting on this. Be fascinated to see if you can finally track down the source...

Good luck - C