Hey Folks,
I just got my new trem in the mail today for the project Strat I'm working on (see my "Polishing Day" thread). It does appear to be Fender Mexican...it has the Fender saddles, the correct spacing for a Fender Mexican, etc.. It has "PW-29" stamped on both the back of the bridge plate as well as on the trem block. Now the trem block itself...it is large and heavy (unlike the stock block from my '96) but it's not steel...I tried putting a magnet on it and it don't stick, so I'm assuming that it is the more traditional zinc alloy that's often used.

When I went from the small zinc block in my '96 MIM to the steel Callaham block, there was a -huge- difference, particularly in regards to the sustain. As I've said elsewhere, next to the pickups it was the single best upgrade I had done on that guitar. My question here is; in regards to the effect that a trem block has on a guitar's sustain and tone, how much of it is the material and how much of it is simply the mass of the block? In other words, does a steel block of the same approximate size and mass really make much of a difference? I know this is a bit subjective and I'm certain this thing will be better than one of the typical little dinky blocks but as it's going to be at last a couple of weeks before I can put this thing together, I know this is something I'm going to be wondering about.

Sooo...trem block...mass vs material....thoughts?

As always, thanks!
Jim

(p.s. for those wondering, the mounting screws line up almost perfectly with this body...maybe a hair off, but I think it's close enough for a Butterfinger).

Zinc doesn't vibrate the same way as steel. it is my opinion that a steel block will provide better sustain than a zinc block of the same mass.
I see it this way.

if you have 2 blocks of the same material, more mass will mean more sustain.

but 2 blocks, one steel, one zinc, same mass, steel should provide more sustain.

Mass effects sustain, but so does density. I think a zinc block would have to have a much larger volume than a steel block to have the same mass, as well.

To use an extreme example, you could have 100 lbs of jello, but it will never provide sustain, because the lower density will diffuse the string vibration.

obviously zinc is a solid, but this extreme kind of comparison describes the theory. Zinc molecules aren't packed in as tight, so compared to steel, they dampen any vibration that goes through them.

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I'm not an expert, but I play one on the internet.

I'd always opt for mass over material for no real scientific reason other than i've discovered clamping anything of size and density to the headstock provides much the same effect as a big steel tremblock.

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No no and no

Steel has a higher mass than zinc:

http://www.simetric.co.uk/si_metals.htm

Thus, with blocks of the same size the steel will be heavier. I assume we all agree that steel has a better sustain and tone than zinc: presumably the higher mass is why.

Though I suppose its elasticity/stiffness must come into it too (Young's Modulus...).

From that page (above) we see that brass has a higher mass than either steel or zinc. How do we all feel brass components compare with steel?

The bit of all this that's confusing me is therefore why aluminum tailpieces are so desirable on Les Pauls? That's where my theory is falling down...

- C

Twelvebar's original logic is a tad off. If you have two blocks, one of zinc and one of steel, and you have the same mass, then the zinc block will be significantly larger. But the sustain should not be noticeably different.

The issue would be that a zinc block would be approximately the same size as the steel block and therefore would have less mass - therefore less sustain.

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Ignorance IS bliss - and I am the happiest person here!

Remember that brass everything fell out of fashion amongst builders/players some years back when it was discovered that it hampered rather than enhanced sustain? Perhaps theres a limit to the mass/size/weight formula where if you cross it, it hampers sustain.

As for ali LP tailpieces perhaps they aid treble response rather than sustain. We threw that one around a few weeks back about set necks and maple caps didnt we.

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No no and no

Ah, that sounds right, yes. My Paul just has the tailpiece it came with - which come to think of it may be zinc, if memory serves. Should I try a swap?

[Ceri does some Googling...] Man, look at the price of that TonePros aluminum tailpiece - £68.46 / $96.16 !! Or a Gotoh one for £24.47 / $34.37 (WD Music). There's gotta be some vital difference between the two...

On the other hand, WD Music say these aluminum ones improve sustain. Which contradicts my mass theory, above...

Cheers - C

my theory, is that density, as well as mass plays a part in sustain. I think its not just the mass of the block, but the composition of the material too.

I didn't take into account how much real estate each block fills. Mass and volume aren't the same. (neither are mass and weight, but I think its a better way to think about mass.)
A steel bridge with the same mass/weight as a zinc block will have a smaller volume. (the molecules are packed in way tighter, so take up less room.)

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I'm not an expert, but I play one on the internet.

I just recently tried several blocks/trems in my MIM reissue. Two were steell, one of those being a callaham. Both were too bright for me at least. i like brightness but not at the cost of body, and it lost body. So i then tried a very large zinc block that i'm not even sure where i got it. had it for years. It gave a ton of low end but the highs were not real good in some way i can't quite explain. i think the tone was also out of balance with the bass being so much. So back in with the old zinc stocker....balanced, not too bright, sustain is the same as far as i can tell. So IMO mass does change things, but not necassarily for the better. Nor does steel. It's not "better", it's what works for you and your strat. at another forum there was a thread where some people prefered zinc and also stated some of the most respected builders recommend zinc just as much as steel because it all depends what you're after and whether the guitar is bright or dark, etc etc. so i would say to choose a normal size block and choose steel if you feel you need more brightness and zinc if you want a more balanced sound. try the trem you bought and see if it sounds good to you.

My 2006 custom classic uses a zinc block. It seems to sound ok.

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No no and no

More to the point - how is that bridge fitting with the 5.2cm spacing??

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72 Custom Tele
50's Strat
Sqiuer Classic Vibe 50's P bass
Blues Junior
DG acoustic
Sparkly Thong

On the mass = tone theory, white metals are actually quite easy to work with. Come to think of it, I have everything required to cast and machine a lead trem block, working from a steel one as a prototype.

Don't hold your breathe! I ain't about to do it, right now...

But if mass was the only thing that counted presumably the makers would be slapping lead blocks into all our guitars. So there must be more to it...

Cheers - C

On top of the Tonepro's bridge being aluminum, I believe it is also locks into place, i.e. when changing strings it isn't going to come off or slip out of place. Helps with intonation/tuning stability as well. I looked into one of those bridges myself but couldn't justify the cost as my LP already came with the aluminum bridge and tailpiece.

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The mind is like a parachute; it doesn't work unless its open-FZ

[Ceri does some more Googling...] Ah yes, you're right. "TonePros System II tailpiece locks in solid..." Well spotted, thank you.

Well, that presents a dilemma. Which one to go for? And would I have ever felt the need, if I'd not read about the wonderfulness of aluminum tails in a magazine somewhere...?

- C

One day me and a friend decided to just hang out, have some beers and re-string our guitars. He has a 2006 LP Std and I have a 2001 '58 Historic. He asked if he could string his guitar with the bridge and tailpiece from mine and I said sure...needless to say once we picked our jaws up from the floor, we couldn't believe the difference the aluminum made. He went and ordered the aluminum bridge and tailpiece the next day!

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The mind is like a parachute; it doesn't work unless its open-FZ