Hahaha...you're cussing out that Watkins?

I thought the question was simply hybrids vs all tube amps, and if we're comparing properly, the watermarks for all tube amps have to be considered, don't they? Isn't the highest point on the mountain where we have the best view?

His question wasn't " What's the difference between Hybrids and production tube amps of today?" He wanted to know a general difference, and for that I shot high instead of low. I had no clue this was a budget based question. My apologies.

Thats my watkins. Their fetching stupid money in the usa. I bought that all original 4 months ago for £140 roughly $210 today from a guitar shop.
Their fetching $1500+ stateside from what ive seen on ebay. Thats a farcical price, they were never that popular. Though i do love mine.

_________________
No no and no

I have some respect for Charlie Watkins, WEM and that whole scene back then with Jennings, and VOX and some of the great pioneers of guitar amps out of England.

Is that the single 10" model with the 2 - ECL 82 output and the old EZ 80 rectifier tube? The Clubman and the old Westminster were based on the same circuit weren't they? I've never played through one of those, but I've heard the tone is a little like late 50's AC-15, maybe a bit sweeter, and not as loud.

Good amp Ninja. That's the real deal for tone in amps that size, and we should be reccommending things in that direction as far as educating people on tone is concerned in my opinion.

Its a clubman with a ecc83 pre amp, ez80 rectifier and el84 poweramp valve. All original yellow script mullards and suprisingly next to no hum, which im told is down to the next to near perfect power transistor matching.

It would be nice to recommend such amps to people but their just too rare at watkin's prices. I'm more interested in making USA citizens understand they sell for less than a vibrchamp xd in england. Same wattage, world of difference in tone and £50 CHEAPER. Bit of a eye opener eh?

_________________
No no and no

I think you meant power transformer matching, not power transistor matching?

Yes, it's a bit eye opening, but that's what we need here. Truly not everyone will be able to afford originals like that, but certainly we can educate others as to what comprises great tone vs. gimmicks and "versatility".

You know the great thing about the Vox AD series that I bought is? It's a mirror that shines light on exactly how wonderful the tone is on the REAL vintage amps, and yes, even the boutiques that are being made today.

I gotta agree with that too. My vibrochamp xd doesnt sound like my watkins but does give good readily available tone to nearly anyone at a decent price. A sign that manufacturers are starting to realize we wont accept just any old junk.
Lets face facts here too. If watkins sounded as good as vox/jennings or fender at the time they would be more popular. They are good though.

Yeah i did mean power transformer, not transistor...... the lager is kicking in to my already addled mind.

_________________
No no and no

I have botha tube and hybrid amp I like the tube amp much better

I wish that was true of all but I still see some moving lower quality stuff by name only. Then the high quality stuff is out of reach of many (Budda, Orange. Bad Cat) its a list full. I have been looking at low watt amps and just can't talk myself into which one I want next. My Son wants a Orange Tiny Terror me I liked the Ampeg J20 but thats a 20watt then I liked a used Carvin Vintage 16 thats 16 watt pentode and 5watt Triode but the dude wanted almost what I could by a new one for and they seem to be a good deal. Mean while I am still looking.

_________________
The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.

Thomas Jefferson

Cvilleia, blackheart, epiphone and fender offer good valve amps in the low watts. I wouldnt be put off by lack of controls. I find high end marshalls lacking to the sound o their vintage reissues with less dials and i'd take my new vibrochamp over my blues jr 7 days a week just on its champ sound.
No mass produced amp is going to sound like a buddah or dumble, id even say no vintage amp would though too.
The common market and high number of manufacturers looking to make a name can only make things better for us if we forget brand loyalty.

_________________
No no and no

I wish the Voz AC4's were out now but I am hearing it could be a few more months for them and the new Epi. Valve JR. Hot rod

_________________
The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.

Thomas Jefferson

I think there are a lot of hybrids and all SS amps that sound so close it can be impossible to tell. What thy DON'T do anywhere near as well if give you the FEEL and dynamics of a tube amp. (and when i say dynamics i not only mean volume wise, but color wise) Thats what makes tube amps so desirable, not so much the sound. I recall even Aspen Pitman of groove tubes saying that once. I've found many SS amps i liked a lot. But w/o exception every time i tried to use one at a gig the lousy feel and dynamics became very apparent. Thats where all amps show thier true color.

By the way, what makes for that feel/dynamics that tube amps posess is not the preamp, but the power amp. So a hybrid with a tube output section is far better than a tube pre with SS power. The latter is usually no better than a full SS amp. the output section of a tube amp is where all the magic happens. That why you often see people including world class players using old fenders and such with all thier distortion coming from a SS pedal. It's really not so much tube distortion thats so good, it's the feel and dynamics of a tube power section.

Dont' forget that the "feel" you talk about also comes from the sag that occurs when AC is converted to usable DC. Without some of this soft sag, amps sound a bit cold, brittle and somewhat sterile. That sag comes from the recifier tube, and is nearly impossible for the modelling amps to duplicate. As cool as my little Vox AD is, it can't do this.

Hybrids have few limittions when it comes to onboard gimmics. This is where they shine. But for pure warm spongy tone, and loads of it...lots of tubes means lots of tone. And that includes the rectifier section. Good reverb is driven by a small tube, usually a 12AX7. Great tremelo is driven by a 12AT7 or 12AX7 as well. Two or three more 12AX7's control input/front end activity. That's lots of tubes! Then there's 2 or 4 more tubes on the oputput side, depending on the size of the amp. The Brits love EL-84's ( Vox) and the Yanks love 6L6's ( Twins, Deluxes, Vibroluxes, Vibroverbs...all the good ones!)

Now you hand wire the circuit, and leave out that nasty old circuit board, which is prone to warpage and cracking over time, and tie down the wiring really nice and neat, and you've likely got a great sounding amp, provided the circuit is a good sounding one to start with. Match that with good wood, like 3/4" dove tailed birch cabinetry, properly selected speakers, and there we are.

This all costs money. It's inconceivable that a professional player is still looking for a professional amp. That's like a journeyman carpenter still hunting for a decent skill saw or brad nailer. You gotta have the right tools.

If a carpenter walked into your house to do rennovations , and whipped out an old rip saw and a ballpein hammer we'd give him a strange look. He might be a genius, but poor or wrong equipment would hold him back.

There's absolutely no harm in musicians taking equipment more seriously, and not always talking about "good deals" or buying on budget. Leave that for buying mouthwash at Walmart.

All I know is that I really like my SuperChampXD. I know that everything runs through the DSP, but with the tube preamp and tube power section it has a very nice tube sound and feel.

Best of both worlds...

_________________
Ignorance IS bliss - and I am the happiest person here!

When you set it on the champ simulation and max everything except effects do you hear sag? i do with the vibrochamp and just a/b'd it against the watkins that does have valve rectification. Theres not much in it.
Oh i hate el84s. Give me el34s or kt66s anyday of the week.

_________________
No no and no