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Post subject: greasebucket tone circut?
Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 5:50 pm
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can someone explain what this means for me?
i know it rolls off the highs without adding bass!!

but what does that mean?? in terms of tone

sorry to be dumb! but if ya dont ask!!

thanks for ya help


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Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 6:13 pm
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When rolling off the highs the tone will not get muddy.

Other guitar companies are calling this type of thing a treble bypass.

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Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 7:01 am
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It must do something else. A plain old passive tone circuit rolls off highs without adding lows. You can't add in lows by draining off highs through a capacitor. In fact, while the capacitor preferentially passes highs to ground it passes a tiny bit of the lows, too. So you actually lose a little bit of the remaining lows in the signal.

So something else has to be going on here.

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Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 9:40 am
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It's not a treble bypass, thats something completely different and is for the volume control.

I know exactly how this circuit works because I came up with the idea independently before I knew Fender was using it and had a name for it. (Stupid me or smart me, i'm not sure which)

The basic concept is that it changes the cutoff frequency (moving it higher) as the tone knob is turned down.
With a normal tone control the cutoff frequency moves down (to the bass side) as the tone is turned down as well as reducing the level of the treble frequencies.
This causes a lot of midrange loss where the meat of your tone is.
To offset this effect, you can slowly add in another capacitor in series to effectively reduce the overall capacitance used in the tone control. This shifts the cutoff frequency higher or keeps it in the same place depending on which values you use. I think fender typically uses a value for the second cap (the one being added in) that is twice the value of the main cap.
Since the other side of the tone control normally goes unused, you use the second cap in parallel with it to slowly add in the second cap. When at 10, those lugs are a short, but as the resistance increases, more signal goes through the second cap.

Hopefully this makes it a bit more clear:

Image

This works great, and I typically use the same values or even a lower value on the second cap to get a sharp treble cutoff when turned all the way down.


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Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 9:44 am
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Hmmmm.

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Last edited by CAFeathers on Mon Dec 29, 2008 9:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 9:50 am
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Yeah, some people see a cap going across the two lugs of the pot and think it's a treble bypass because thats what a treble bypass looks like on a volume control at first glance, but thats all they have in common. The values and the intent are completely different.


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Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 9:53 am
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Relook at the wiring diagram and parts list. It is a resister added to each tone pot, not a capacitor.

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Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:15 am
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I would be perfectly happy to take credit for this, but here is a Fender example of the GreaseBucket:
http://www.fender.com/support/diagrams/pdf_temp1/stratocaster/0111700B/SD0111700BPg2.pdf
Parts list for same:
http://www.fender.com/support/diagrams/pdf_temp1/stratocaster/0111700B/SD0111700BPg3.pdf

#16 (.1µf) and #17 (.02µf) are the caps used.


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Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:17 am
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Not that I don't believe you, but I have written to Fender to get an explanation. I'll post what I find out.

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Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:32 pm
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Hey eddie, thanks for the info on the Greasebucket tone circuit.

Your version is quite different (Fender uses a 0.1 and 0.02 instead of the 0.47 and 0.22 you show in your circuit and they stick an extra 4.7K ohm resistor in there).

Have you had a chance to compare your circuit to the Fender in actual guitars?

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Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:48 pm
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orvilleowner wrote:
Hey eddie, thanks for the info on the Greasebucket tone circuit.

Your version is quite different (Fender uses a 0.1 and 0.02 instead of the 0.47 and 0.22 you show in your circuit and they stick an extra 4.7K ohm resistor in there).

Have you had a chance to compare your circuit to the Fender in actual guitars?
You are right orville that is how the HWY1's are wired.

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Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 8:33 pm
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It's not the EXACT values, but it's the same exact theory. AND I don't use the same values for all guitars. I wouldn't say it VERY different. Thats like saying every tone circuit is completly different because they use different value caps.
The resistor just floats ground a tiny bit so it doesn't mud out at 0. If you use lower value caps you don't need that.

-Eddie


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Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 9:09 pm
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I like mine. All the other guitars I have owned, when I would use the tone knobs, would add bass. I like not adding bass, less adjustments to my EQ when toning down the highs for some songs.

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Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 3:02 pm
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eddie_bowers wrote:
It's not the EXACT values, but it's the same exact theory. AND I don't use the same values for all guitars. I wouldn't say it VERY different. Thats like saying every tone circuit is completly different because they use different value caps.
The resistor just floats ground a tiny bit so it doesn't mud out at 0. If you use lower value caps you don't need that.

-Eddie

What do you meen the Resistor just floats ground so it does not mud out?

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Post subject:
Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 3:18 pm
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I just meant that instead of shorting the cap completely to ground when the tone control is a 0, that extra resistor adds just a bit of resistance so that it's not completely at ground at 0.
I would guess that value was determined just by listening while turning down the tone control until it sounded bad (got muddy) and then measuring how much resistance away from ground that was. By adding the resistor, you never have an unusable setting on the tone control.

Thats just a guess on my part as to how and why that value was chosen, but it could be something more technical than that.

When you use lower value caps you don't really need that, but the overall effect is much more subtle. Especially if you are using Paper In Oil (PIO) caps for some reason.

Maybe my version is just a Pail imitation of a greasbucket.

Get it? Pail, Bucket... :) (groan)


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