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Post subject: Measuring neck relief
Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 2:59 pm
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Hi Guys,

For those of you who do your own setups, what method do you use to measure relief? I have tried the capo on the first fret and then pressing down at the last fret and measuring at the 8th with a feeler guage. However, I believe this may not be the best way, and I am thinking using a stright edge would be better than the string method. The reason is because I think the strings bow slightly when pressed against the fret which means if you adjust the relief to .01" you actually have much less relief which leads to fret buzz. I have found that my strat does better with a bit more relief and lower action at the bridge

Problem, I do not have a metal straight edge that is long enough to truely check relief from the first fret to the last.

Please share your successful setup thoughts, tips and findings

thx

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Post subject: Re: Measuring neck relief
Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 4:17 pm
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firstrat wrote:
Problem, I do not have a metal straight edge that is long enough to truely check relief from the first fret to the last.


Haha! Which kinda answers your own question. That's why many people use the string fretted at first and last fret method.

But yes, a 24 inch steel straightedge used edge on is even better, because it is easier to make those feeler gauge measurements beneath a rigid surface. And if the neck is actually backbowing a touch the ruler will show you it by rocking on the middle frets.

Cheers - C


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Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 4:22 pm
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i check it against the string from the 1st to 15th frets. I dont bother with feeler guages either i just eye mine up to the high E. I aim to get about the high E strings thickness between the top of the fret and the bottom of the E string.
Using the string as a straight edge is perfectly good. It does stay straight. Like a piece of string under the tension of a plumb bob weight, it has to fall plumb and the tension makes it straight.

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Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 7:02 pm
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Thanks for the replys guys!

nikininja wrote:
i check it against the string from the 1st to 15th frets. I dont bother with feeler guages either i just eye mine up to the high E. I aim to get about the high E strings thickness between the top of the fret and the bottom of the E string.
Using the string as a straight edge is perfectly good. It does stay straight. Like a piece of string under the tension of a plumb bob weight, it has to fall plumb and the tension makes it straight.


Interesting. Why the 15th fret? The fender manual said the last fret. My 15th fret measurement is tighter than my last fret measurement. This suggest that you, like me, also like a little more relief than fender calls for????

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2. ESP KH2 Neck Thru
3. 2008 Am Std Strat in 3 tone sunburst


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Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 8:50 pm
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What am I missing here? I've been working on Stratocaster, Telecaster, Rickenbacker, Gibsons...you name the brands of guitars...for 39 years now. All kinds of musicians from first time owners to well known professionals. Never yet have I used any measuring device for any sort of relief or added tension to the neck. And they all kept coming back because they liked the work I did, and it met what they wanted that guitar to be like as far as action is concerned. I'm puzzled after all this time. Neck work, action or "relief " is about feel and preference, and you learn to work on necks the exact same way, by feel and preference. Sraight edges, tools, plumb bobbing...what are you guys trying to do? Build a chicken coop? :)

I'll help you...maybe...but what is it you want?


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Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 9:35 am
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Pete55 wrote:
What am I missing here? I've been working on Stratocaster, Telecaster, Rickenbacker, Gibsons...you name the brands of guitars...for 39 years now. All kinds of musicians from first time owners to well known professionals. Never yet have I used any measuring device for any sort of relief or added tension to the neck. And they all kept coming back because they liked the work I did, and it met what they wanted that guitar to be like as far as action is concerned. I'm puzzled after all this time. Neck work, action or "relief " is about feel and preference, and you learn to work on necks the exact same way, by feel and preference. Sraight edges, tools, plumb bobbing...what are you guys trying to do? Build a chicken coop? :)

I'll help you...maybe...but what is it you want?


The key here is your experience. The measuring is for us guys needing a starting point for reference.

What I am looking for is low action but still getting all notes out clean(minimize fret interference/buzz). I use heavy picks and sometimes pick pretty hard. So I still want the notes to ring free...the best of both worlds.

I have been experimenting and this is what I am coming up with and wanted to see if anyone else has tips or suggestions.

Where i am coming from is that I played with a lot of high gain in the past, so I think I may have not noticed the buzz as bad. But the last few years I am transitioned back to more classic rock/blues stuff with clean and low gain. I think this affects the way I like the guitar setup. I still like my low action when playing the shredding high gain stuff, but for the clean stuff the notes need to ring cleanly. I just am looking for that perfect balance with my strat.

So I am wondering if a guy who likes low action with no fret interference, if the right path is to add some relief over the factory setting and lower the action at the bridge/saddles. With the factory settings on my guitar, the action is too high and when I lower it at the bridge I get fret buzz. There has to be a setting that will get the action low, and still let the notes ring true. I think i found it by adding a small amount of relief and lowering the action at the bridge....is this others experience?

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Guitars:
1. mid 70's Ventura MIJ Gibson l6-s clone (Pre-lawsuit) in Black with Rosewood FB and EMG 81 BR/ 85 Neck
2. ESP KH2 Neck Thru
3. 2008 Am Std Strat in 3 tone sunburst


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Post subject:
Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 11:07 am
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I measure everything.
WHY you ask?
So I know where the hell and going and where the hell I have been.
Yes action and relief is all about feel and personal taste, but what if you want to try your action higher or a little less relief and don't like it. Do you want to spend hours getting it back to where it was MAYBE by feel? (this includes pickup heights since changing the action changes the distance to the pickups)
NO, you want to refer back to your measurements and get it back in moments.
Say the weather changes and your guitar doesn't play quite like it did before. Is it you? Are you having an off day, or did something change? You need some documented reference to see that, hey the neck relief changed on me. Then you can get it back right to where you like it right away.

If you even have your guitar worked on, do you want it setup to the action and feel that the guy working on thinks is right for you? No, you want to be able to tell him what action and relief you like on that guitar. I have my preferences documented for each guitar I have (and they do vary) but it also gives me ballpark settings for any other guitar of where to start from.

Knowledge Is power man.

That being said, the string straight edge method is perfectly acceptable. It really doesn’t matter if the settings get skewed by how hard you press the string (which has to be very little) as long as you are consistent with how you measure.


-Eddie


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Post subject:
Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 11:48 am
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I use a Sterrett 18" precision straight edge and a Sterratt Rule that I got through a machiine shop at a good price.

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Post subject:
Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 12:52 pm
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Ditto to cvilleira and Eddie. Having discovered in earlier years what relief I liked I specified it to techs who worked on my guitars for me. Sometimes I got what I wanted and sometimes not. The latter was presumably from someone who thought he knew better than my feeler gauge measurement. Techs like that were what inspired me to learn to do the job properly for myself.

Also, by taking an accurate measurement every now and again I've been able to trace for certain that my taste has gradually shifted towards less neck relief - rather than just having an unsupported belief that that is what has happened. (Nowadays I like a fairly factory spec action but little relief.)

Interesting point on that: Dan Erlewine puts forward the view that a perfectly straight neck (no relief at all) is intrinsically stiffer and so sustains better than one with a fair amount of relief, which he suggests must be more springy and so will give a shorter decay. Must say, my ears can't hear it, but I'd be curious (and impressed) if anyone here feels they can!

Cheers - C


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Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 2:11 pm
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firstrat wrote:

Interesting. Why the 15th fret? The fender manual said the last fret. My 15th fret measurement is tighter than my last fret measurement. This suggest that you, like me, also like a little more relief than fender calls for????


Why? because i've found what i like, and that gets me there.
Yes i do like a good bit of bow on a neck, and medium to high action too.

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Post subject:
Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 8:08 pm
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Well, guys...this topic is likely on the " who cares" pile by now, but setting up Straocasters has always been a work of compromise.

If you play harder, and really attack the strings, you will either A) Have to have higher action to avoid buzzing, or B) drop the action, and put up with the buzzing or finally C) have a nice light fast action, and stop hitting the damn guitar so hard!

I can adjust it whichever way you like, but you may not get all elements at one time. You will likely meet in the middle between extreme playability, and minimum buzzing. For the guys with levels, sticks, measuring tapes, slide rules, compasses, and computer driven images of Enth degree tolerances...remember this: Getting the meaurements on one girl doesn't guarantee the next girl will co-operate using the same numbers. Now we get into neck angles, wood changes, types of wood, humidity changes, location on the glode, mfg standards, plain old weather, and the fact that wood is a seemingly living thing, and many times an unpredictable lady.

Please don't misunderstand me. I have tools. I understand perfectly well that you are all looking for an airtight template. The best you can acheive is a general start point. The Fender manuals are exactly that. But a template we can all ratify? That's a joke, guys...because you can't even get a template that works time and again on the same damn guitar over time, so how can it work on yet another one? :)

I'm not doing this type of work everyday now, as I'm trying to retire. But I didn't stay busy this long because this is easy! I totally understand all of your frustrations. Especially with Strats.

Cheers, and keep taking guitars apart, keep messin' with 'em!

Pete


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Post subject:
Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 8:49 pm
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I completely agree that every guitar is different. Thats why I have different logs for each one. Yeah it's overkill, but it's strangly part of the fun.
I also agree that the wood is almost a living thing (and was once) and that why I like to know when it changed on me and how.

For me, I do have a ballpark starting place for a strat that is different than the Fender suggested ones (especialy for the pickups), so thats where I start.
I also like to experiment a lot and take things apart, so having the numbers is handy. It makes me feel free to change things without loosing the magic configuration.
The more experienced you are the less you need that most likely.
It comforts me :)


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Post subject: Re: Measuring neck relief
Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 8:56 pm
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Ceri wrote:
firstrat wrote:
Problem, I do not have a metal straight edge that is long enough to truely check relief from the first fret to the last.


Haha! Which kinda answers your own question. That's why many people use the string fretted at first and last fret method.

But yes, a 24 inch steel straightedge used edge on is even better, because it is easier to make those feeler gauge measurements beneath a rigid surface. And if the neck is actually backbowing a touch the ruler will show you it by rocking on the middle frets.

Cheers - C


That is a great place start. It is a real quick way to see if you are in the ballpark.


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Post subject:
Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:05 am
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Part of the fun of being a guitar player is tinkering with your stuff. I tend to set up my Fender guitars according to Fender specs. I find it to be a good starting point, then I adjust from there. I will get my neck perfectly straight, then add in a little relief as needed. It usually ends up feeling right at Fender specs anyway(for my hands and ears). The string needs room to vibrate in an ellipse, and Leo knew what he was doing when he designed the Fender adjustable neck.
I tend to set up my Strats that have single coils with a little more string height and relief, cuz I love the clean bell-like tone, without fret rattle. My Strats that have an HSS configuration, I tend to run the strings a little lower, cuz those are more hard rock/shred set ups anyway, and I use more gain/dist. for those guitars. A little fret buzz is a trade off for faster action.
I have a Les Paul Custom "Fretless Wonder" that has the lowest frets on any guitar I have ever played, and I run the strings lower than on any guitar I have, with hardly any relief at all. It is all about feel and playability. There will always be a trade off.
Other variables include string gauge and fret profile.


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Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:25 am
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If you're not going to take it to a professional then follow the owners' manual.


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