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Post subject: Thoughts on Doing a Fretless Experiment
Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 8:32 am
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A little personal history first. Like many guys my age, I played the guitar mainly for fun and to get the girls attention. Set my last guitar down 40 years ago, don't have any idea where it went - it was a Jaguar because I had to have what Carl Wilson played. Am now trying to get back the fun and joy I experienced in playing back then....don't need the girls anymore....happily married, besides, the older you get - well, that's for another day.

I have been discussing getting a MIM Strat and having it converted to a fretless neck. Having never played a fretless guitar, I think starting on the inexpensive side might make sense.

My guitar shop will also use this guitar to experiment on getting me "just the right" feel by reshaping the neck before trying going fretless, so this would be my second experimental Strat. Have already tried scalloping a 6 or 7 year old MIM Strat and that has helped with some slight arthritic fingers doing barre chords.

Anyone have any thoughts, input, personal experience or things that I need to look out for?

Thanks in advance.


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Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 1:18 pm
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Welcome!

Well, you asked (in no particular order):

A fretless guitar neck would be absolutely perfect for slide guitar. Aside from that, it is pretty much useless as an all around guitar. Actually, you'll be making a guitar which will be a thousand times more difficult to play than just a 'normal' one.

By and large, those who play violins, violas, cellos, etc, you know, instruments with fretless fingerboards, the vast majority of the time are played fingering only single notes at a time. So, unless you intend to not play a guitar like a guitar, rather, playing it like a violin, etc, etc, the pinpoint precision in terms of position and tension required for left hand intonation and note clarity especially with chord work would be quite a task. And even at that, don't except all the notes to ring out crystal clear and sustain. Many guitar fingerboards are candidates for random dead spots due to the natural graining of the wood, how the neck is attached to the guitar, etc. Most dead spots don't quite manifest themselves due to the fingerboards being fretted.

Couple all the above with arthritis and you'd have a virtually insurmountable task to overcome.

Your music store is behind you all the way as it is a money maker and novelty for them.

Surely, your best way to go is to buy a decent guitar where you find that you naturally like the stock shape of the neck. Find one that has good sized frets on it so that you don't have to push hard on the fingerboard to fret any of the notes (thus eliminating the need for scalloping), put extremely light gauge strings on it and keep the action as low as possible.

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Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 1:33 pm
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Another good post by Martian.

Little to add to that. 'Cept there's a fretless Strat type guitar that one of the French makers does as an artist sig - probably Lag, though it might have been Vigier.

I believe some of the fretless ones I've seen have a metal fingerboard. I don't know why for certain: either it's for the deadspot reasons Martian mentioned, or it's better for tone with finger stopping, or maybe it does something for a slide sound...

I suspect a fretless guitar is a whole different kettle of fish than a fretless bass to play. Though like on many fretless basses I presume the luthier would replace the frets with little strips of contrasting colored wood in the slots, so you'd have position markers to help you along.

I've just been and had a twang on my old 3/4 size violin (from when I was eight) and, yup, it sure is hard getting chords out of it. Of course, fiddleplayers often do double-stopping, occasionally triple-stopping and once in a blue moon quadruple-stopping - though that last is very much in the stunt playing department. So I guess in time you'd be able to do decent triads on a neck like that, which may be all you need.

On the plus side, if like Nikininja the fine tuning issues to do with fret placement bother you a lot then this would be a route to perfect temperament (intonation) in all keys - if your technique is up to it!

I badly want you to go ahead with it - because I want to see what it looks like and hear how you get along.

Very best of luck to you! - C


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Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 2:46 pm
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Thanks for the input Martin and Ceri. The frets would be replaced with wooden strips, but I can see that exact finger placement would be needed and quite difficult.

As far as the money issue, I have a Les Paul that I had discussed getting turned fretless and they quickly suggested trying it out on a "less expensive guitar". I've known these guys for 20+ years but only on a social basis. We've only recently begun doing "business" together....once the bug bit me again.

I have been accumulating a number of guiatrs over the last year and enjoy each of their differences, except for a Korean Gretsch that should have stayed in Korea - but the "Nashville Orange" just looks beautiful to look at.

Ceri, I think I may go ahead and see what comes of going fretless just because the sound that comes from it could be very interesting, if not shocking and hopefully not too horrible.

I will also keep up the quest for that "perfect feeling" neck. It is surprising how completely different two guitars from the same factory of the same model and age can feel so completely different.

The removal of the frets process will probably take a few weeks and I'll come back with a post on comments and photos.

Again,
Thanks for the welcome and the input.
Rick


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Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 4:48 pm
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Flashback From the 60's wrote:
Ceri, I think I may go ahead and see what comes of going fretless just because the sound that comes from it could be very interesting, if not shocking and hopefully not too horrible.


Rick, I'm curious to know what kind of music you plan on playing on your fretless guitar.

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Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 5:05 pm
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That's great - give it a go! The worst that can happen is that you find it unplayable with your fingers - but still have a guitar that's good for slide with a comparatively low action. In fact, that could be quite cool.

Will it have a maple or rosewood fingerboard?

Can't wait to see pix!

Good luck - C


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Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 5:08 pm
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Technique is everything on a fretless guitar. I remember a Vai or satriani interview where they said they were having one made, i didnt hear anymore about it so it cant of been that popular with them. Your also going to have to have interval perfect hearing. Dont expect A to be directly below E where the 7th fret would be. Epescialy after a re-string.
Still all the best with it. It may well be worth getting a cheap high gloss maple boarded neck to do the experiment on.


Have fun. :)

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Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 5:34 pm
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nikininja wrote:
...Have fun. :)


Hey Ninja, sorry to interupt, but switch on BBC2 right now and you'll see Knopfler and the Straits doing Sultans from a 1978 Old Grey Whistle Test program - along with a bunch of other good '60s and '70s guitar stuff: Hendrix, Peter Green, BB King, Blackmore etc etc...

To the TV, quick!

Cheers - C


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Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 8:25 am
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Orville: What kind of music?
I have don’t feel my taste is limited to one style or type, though I can’t say I’m in love with Bluegrass or Rap. Pretty much everything else is good for me. I am trying to get back what I thought was decent playing ability for me those years ago, so I’m sure there will be a lot of “Surf” style music as well as early rock in what I initially try to play on it.

Ceri: As for the neck, I am going for Midnight Wine MIM Strat, which I am pretty sure only comes with a Maple fretboard. I believe the fret markers that are being inserted in place of the frets will be either darkly stained maple or rosewood. From an appearance standpoint, stained maple might be preferred.


I will admit that the fretless experiment is as much because I can as for any other reason, I’m suspecting there are going to be some enlightening sounds that come about. I’m wondering how a chord played ¼ or ½ fret off will really sound. How will it do going through various pedals, octave generators, effects, etc. That’s why I call it an experiment. Worst case would be to put the frets back in after firsthand experience of how the fretless neck really plays.


As an additional item, seems that a lot of folks here post photos of their guitars on the forum, so tomorrow, I’ll get to taking some photos of my current guitars and see about getting them posted.
Again,
Thanks for the input and ideas.

Rick


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Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 5:49 pm
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Martian wrote:
Welcome!

Well, you asked (in no particular order):

A fretless guitar neck would be absolutely perfect for slide guitar. Aside from that, it is pretty much useless as an all around guitar. Actually, you'll be making a guitar which will be a thousand times more difficult to play than just a 'normal' one.

By and large, those who play violins, violas, cellos, etc, you know, instruments with fretless fingerboards, the vast majority of the time are played fingering only single notes at a time. So, unless you intend to not play a guitar like a guitar, rather, playing it like a violin, etc, etc, the pinpoint precision in terms of position and tension required for left hand intonation and note clarity especially with chord work would be quite a task. And even at that, don't except all the notes to ring out crystal clear and sustain. Many guitar fingerboards are candidates for random dead spots due to the natural graining of the wood, how the neck is attached to the guitar, etc. Most dead spots don't quite manifest themselves due to the fingerboards being fretted.

Couple all the above with arthritis and you'd have a virtually insurmountable task to overcome.

Your music store is behind you all the way as it is a money maker and novelty for them.

Surely, your best way to go is to buy a decent guitar where you find that you naturally like the stock shape of the neck. Find one that has good sized frets on it so that you don't have to push hard on the fingerboard to fret any of the notes (thus eliminating the need for scalloping), put extremely light gauge strings on it and keep the action as low as possible.
nicely said. another quote in the history of martian.BRAVO


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Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:04 pm
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theres a common belief that the 19 interval to the octave neck is the most tonaly pleasant. Purely for the reason of getting E#/B# kind of notes. It eliminates the need for tempering of tuning too.

I'd hate to have to learn to play all over again though

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Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 10:10 am
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nikininja wrote:
19 interval to the octave


Good golly Miss Molly!

Cheers - C


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Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 2:55 pm
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This is a link to photos of current guitars.
The Fretless will be ready one day next week and photos will be added then.
Some of the photos aren't that great and I didn't do too much cleaning.

http://www.rickwolf.com/guitar/default.htm


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Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 3:38 pm
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there's a little blurb (right next to the Fender University article!) in this months Guitar Player mag about the fretless guitar fest http://www.fretlessguitarfestival.com/


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Post subject:
Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 3:56 pm
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Thanks for the link. I was not aware of the site.


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