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Post subject: Question about improvising?
Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:17 pm
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When I'm improvising on guitar to a certain song I get certain notes in my head that I want to play. But when I try to play the notes that are in my head on the guitar they end up being incorrect. How do I get to the point where the notes in my head match what I'm playing on guitar while I'm improvising?


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Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:20 pm
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practice. :roll: it takes awhile to know where the right notes are. good luck! :)


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Post subject: Re: Question about improvising?
Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:34 pm
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Blaqdog wrote:
When I'm improvising on guitar to a certain song I get certain notes in my head that I want to play. But when I try to play the notes that are in my head on the guitar they end up being incorrect. How do I get to the point where the notes in my head match what I'm playing on guitar while I'm improvising?


But actually that's a good start - having notes in your head. Much of the time we improvise around shapes our fingers know on the neck. It can sound fine - it can sound great - but it is not the way to find new things to say.

The best melodic playing starts in your head, and from there you find ways to get it out onto the instrument.

Brian May said that all his most useful composition is done away from the guitar, out on a long walk, for example. Because otherwise his fingers just go through the same familiar patterns time after time.

Also, whistling or humming a lot is a good way to generate musical ideas. Lil Harding, Louis Armstrong's wife, said she nearly always heard his licks first in the form of whistling long before she heard them on the trumpet. Louis was an inveterate whistler, apparently.

I think you're doing all right, Blaqdog. You are tackling the job in the right order. Have the ideas first, then figure out how to play them on the guitar. Don't worry, it'll come!

Cheers - C


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Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:36 pm
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To improvise well you've got to know the fretboard. All solo's are an improvisation to some degree, thats why lead guitarists record the same solo a few times then pick the one they like the best.
A good tip for constructing any solo is to whistle or hum it. When you do that the notes are formed in your mind, the intervals between notes become clearer to you and its only a matter of trial and error before you get it down onto the fretboard.

Hope that helps


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Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:47 pm
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Actually that's what I do. I use trial and error until I figure out the notes that are in my head. So when I play the song I know what notes to play. I just wish that I could know what notes to play instantly so I wouldn't have to do that. I guess I'll just have to keep practicing. 8)


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Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 7:01 pm
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What I do not just for solos but for songs too is .. I memorize in my head what it sounds like and then I get the notes with my guitar and once it sounds exactly as I had it in my head then I record it and save it to my pc so I never forget :)


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Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 7:50 pm
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I needed to learn a few scales before it got easier to find on the guitar...I have NO natural talent, so it took me forever, but now sometimes (when I'm lucky), when I hear the first note I want in my head, my finger slides right to the note on the fretboard. From there, knowing how the scale is structured helps me know which notes will fit with that one, but thats the point where you've gotta make sure the notes in your head keep coming out....odds are if you learn enough scales you'll find one or two that your head seems naturally in tune to, and you'll more than likely find that you've been playing in some scale you didn't know all along. Just make sure, like everybody said, you play from your head and heart, and don't let the scale shapes take over.


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Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 8:04 pm
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popsbpython wrote:
I needed to learn a few scales before it got easier to find on the guitar...I have NO natural talent, so it took me forever, but now sometimes (when I'm lucky), when I hear the first note I want in my head, my finger slides right to the note on the fretboard. From there, knowing how the scale is structured helps me know which notes will fit with that one, but thats the point where you've gotta make sure the notes in your head keep coming out....odds are if you learn enough scales you'll find one or two that your head seems naturally in tune to, and you'll more than likely find that you've been playing in some scale you didn't know all along. Just make sure, like everybody said, you play from your head and heart, and don't let the scale shapes take over.


That's good.

And probably as important for guitarists as "traditional" scales are modes. Mixolydian, dorian - all that stuff.

When I was getting started it took me a very long time to find out what everyone was talking about with this "modes" business - because I had nobody reliable to ask. Now things are different. This page won't really explain what modes are in a music theory sense, but it shows you how to actually play them. Run through the first few: you'll soon get the idea and see how it relates to improvising.

http://www.mearstech.com/ModeMaster_com/default.htm

Good luck - C


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Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 9:45 pm
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Hey, maybe you could help me, Ceri,
' Not to get on a tangent in someone else's topic, but I've learned my frets and scales pretty well, but no matter what mode I'm going for in whatever shape I'm going for, it always comes out tonally in a major or blues pentatonic....any suggestions on how to break out of the mold, or is that just going to be my voice?


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Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 9:48 pm
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I actually know a bunch of modes and scales. Phygarian, Lydian, Penatonic, etc. But sometimes I hit a sour note and it frustrates me. I think the only way I can get better at improvising is if I jam with other musicians rather than my cassette player. :lol:

Actually, I just found a guy at my church who listens to the same rock music I listen to and he gives free one on one lessons. 8) And I can tell he's been playing for like 20 years or more.


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Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 6:57 am
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popsbpython wrote:
Hey, maybe you could help me, Ceri,
' Not to get on a tangent in someone else's topic, but I've learned my frets and scales pretty well, but no matter what mode I'm going for in whatever shape I'm going for, it always comes out tonally in a major or blues pentatonic....any suggestions on how to break out of the mold, or is that just going to be my voice?


Not tangental at all; very appropriate to this thread, I'd have thought.

I don't have a brilliant answer to it - though maybe someone else does. I dimly remember the triumph when I worked out what the heck this pentatonic thing everyone talked about was. And instantly found myself "trapped" in the pentatonic box for ages after.

For me a partial way out was to concentrate on lots of music that goes beyond the pentatonic, for example, the Allmans and Dire Straits (which fortunately is stuff I like anyway). In the Allman Brothers classic era not only does Dickie Betts fixate on the mixolydian and dorian modes quite a lot, in the the long tracks (such as Mountain Jam) they pass between modes and keys in a way that is as close to true "symphonic" modulation as we are ever going to get in rock. Well beyond the pentatonic: but laced with plenty of five note rock licks as well.

And that goes for Mark Knopfler in a different way too. Plenty of 2nds/9ths and 6ths over the top of his minor triads and blues pentatonic phrases. And in a number such as Tunnel of Love he briefly toggles between modes as well in one phrase. 'Course, that sort of thing can always sound "sweet" after endless blues scale work - but I guess it is like an artist getting extra colors onto his palette.

Robben Ford is sometimes interesting too, for unexpected note choices thrown into reasonably conventional settings.

One more suggestion, probably as an exercise rather than a regular addition to our playing. On that Mode Master webpage I linked to above the fella has a whole lot of strange scales we are likely not familiar with. Fun to learn the notes of one of those and then spend a weird half hour noodling away with it. There's one he calls the Mohammedan scale that tickles my fancy in a strange way. (It in fact is not what we hear in the Rachmaninov Third Symphony, second movement - but it kinda sounds like it...) I don't see hit numbers being written with that scale, but messing around with it for a while sort of jerks the ears out of their normal ruts...

I'd be seriously fascinated to hear other thoughts on this vital subject...

Cheers - C


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Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 8:53 am
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Easiest way to break free of a certain playing style i found is to bombard yourself with completely the opposite style of music. Your never going to get away from pentatonics by listening to clapton or Srv. Flood your ears with some atonal jazz or calypso. What you hear your going to play.


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Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 9:41 am
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Ceri wrote:
popsbpython wrote:
I needed to learn a few scales before it got easier to find on the guitar...I have NO natural talent, so it took me forever, but now sometimes (when I'm lucky), when I hear the first note I want in my head, my finger slides right to the note on the fretboard. From there, knowing how the scale is structured helps me know which notes will fit with that one, but thats the point where you've gotta make sure the notes in your head keep coming out....odds are if you learn enough scales you'll find one or two that your head seems naturally in tune to, and you'll more than likely find that you've been playing in some scale you didn't know all along. Just make sure, like everybody said, you play from your head and heart, and don't let the scale shapes take over.


That's good.

And probably as important for guitarists as "traditional" scales are modes. Mixolydian, dorian - all that stuff.

When I was getting started it took me a very long time to find out what everyone was talking about with this "modes" business - because I had nobody reliable to ask. Now things are different. This page won't really explain what modes are in a music theory sense, but it shows you how to actually play them. Run through the first few: you'll soon get the idea and see how it relates to improvising.

http://www.mearstech.com/ModeMaster_com/default.htm

Good luck - C


That site is pretty cool. I have it bookmarked.


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Post subject: Re: Question about improvising?
Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 10:02 am
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Ceri wrote:
Blaqdog wrote:
When I'm improvising on guitar to a certain song I get certain notes in my head that I want to play. But when I try to play the notes that are in my head on the guitar they end up being incorrect. How do I get to the point where the notes in my head match what I'm playing on guitar while I'm improvising?


But actually that's a good start - having notes in your head. Much of the time we improvise around shapes our fingers know on the neck. It can sound fine - it can sound great - but it is not the way to find new things to say.

The best melodic playing starts in your head, and from there you find ways to get it out onto the instrument.

Brian May said that all his most useful composition is done away from the guitar, out on a long walk, for example. Because otherwise his fingers just go through the same familiar patterns time after time.

Also, whistling or humming a lot is a good way to generate musical ideas. Lil Harding, Louis Armstrong's wife, said she nearly always heard his licks first in the form of whistling long before she heard them on the trumpet. Louis was an inveterate whistler, apparently.

I think you're doing all right, Blaqdog. You are tackling the job in the right order. Have the ideas first, then figure out how to play them on the guitar. Don't worry, it'll come!

Cheers - C


Well, brian may is a composer, not a improviser...he doesn't improvise...really, all his solos are done note by note.

To me, the best way to improvise is...not to think and feel the mood of the song.


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Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 10:20 am
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Blaqdog wrote:
But sometimes I hit a sour note and it frustrates me.


My Mom is a professional Broadway Show pianist (since 1962). When I naively asked if she ever made mistakes, she said, "every night". Remember that she is playing from a score and that for a show like "Chicago" she played the same notes every night for years.

She said the secret was that when she hit a wrong note she would repeat the mistake the next time that part came up. Then, the audience just assumes you meant it. Sometimes, they think you're a genius.

Love,
Todd

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