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Post subject: New American Vintage 57 Strat's
Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 10:06 am
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Hello my Fender Brothers(and Sisters) ... I am hoping someone can clear up a question I have regarding my American Vintage 57 Strat...

my question is about the finish..

Is it true that there is a poly finish on these guitars in addition to the nitro laquer finish?

My 57 was manufactured in Dec 2007 .. and purchased by me, new, in Feb 2008..


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Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 1:00 pm
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This is thre reason I am asking this question .. as I read this review about a 62' AV from Harmony Central website..

It's a "Thin-Skin" which means it has no polyurethane anywhere on it. Apparently Fender has been a sneak, and has been making the vintage reissue guitars with a base of polyurethane and then painting the nitrocellulose layer on top. So, although those guitars looks beautiful, they will never naturally wear. The "Thin-Skin" nitrocellulose guitars after a few long years will wear, so if that is what your looking for, these as well as "Hot-Rod" strats will do it for you.

anyway.. I really hope that it is not true .. that the new 57 American Vintage guitars have a coat of poly IN ADDITION.. to the nitro finish ..

does anyone know? thanks


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Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 1:47 pm
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Personal i think that theory is utter bunkem. What kind of respectable guitar builder is going to put a poly finish on a guitar. Wait a week for it to dry. Then put a nitro finish on a guitar that will serve no purpose. It will never sink through the urethane and will just be another coat of laquer to hamper tone. Then wait another 2 months for that to dry enough to ship.

Its a utter waste of money for no gain.
Anyway the laquer on my hotrods sinking already. I knew they were made to age fast.


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Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 2:14 pm
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ok thanks for your reply .. you make alot sense.. as I could not see the reason that rumour was true ... .. however, yet another user writes about his AV 62 reissue:

http://reviews.harmony-central.com/revi ... aster/10/1

"It has nitrocellulose lacquer over a urethane basecoat, which gives it a glossy, vintage look. The back of the neck does not get sticky, even when humidity is a factor. "

I does not seem correct to me that these AV re-issues have any poly urethane whatso ever.. nor, does it imply to be a 'thin-skin' ..

sorry folks if I seem naive (sp?) about this subject, but I'd really like to get the story straight .. :)


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Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:55 pm
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I second your couriosity...and why is it so hard to get information from fender on this? I'm positive the hot rods don't have any sort of undercoat, I'd bet thats what a "thin skin" paint job is, but looks like we're both having a hard time finding out about the vintage reissues...anybody else know where we could find information on this? They're gonna age either way, but why would they put poly under the nitro?


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Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:29 pm
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Here are the specs

Model Name American Vintage ‘62 Stratocaster®
Model Number 010-0100-(Color#)
Series American Vintage Series
Colors (800)* 3-Color Sunburst *add $50.00,
(805) Olympic White,
(806) Black,
(808) Ocean Turquoise,
(857) Surf Green,
(883) Ice Blue Metallic,
(Nitrocellulose Lacquer Finish)
Body Comfort Contoured Alder Body
Neck Maple, “C” Shape,
(Nitrocellulose Lacquer Finish)
Fingerboard Rosewood, 7.25” Radius (184 mm)
No. of Frets 21 Vintage Style Frets
Pickups 3 American Vintage ‘62 Strat® Single-Coil Pickups with Aged White Covers
Controls Master Volume,
Tone 1. (Neck Pickup),
Tone 2. (Middle Pickup)
Pickup Switching 3-Position Blade:
Position 1. Bridge Pickup
Position 2. Middle Pickup
Position 3. Neck Pickup
(5-Way Switch Included in Kit)
Bridge American Vintage Synchronized Tremolo
Machine Heads Fender®/Gotoh® Vintage Style Tuning Machines
Hardware Nickel/Chrome
Pickguard 3-Ply Mint Green
Scale Length 25.5” (648 mm)
Width at Nut 1.650” (42 mm)
Unique Features Aged Knobs and Switch Tip,
Synthetic Bone Nut
Strings Fender Super 250R, Nickel Plated Steel,
Gauges: (.010, .013, .017, .026, .036, .046),
p/n 073-0250-006
Accessories Deluxe Brown Hardshell Case, Strap, Cable, 5-Position Switch Update Kit, “Ash Tray” Bridge Cover
Case Deluxe Brown Hardshell Case
Introduced 1/1998
Notice Product Prices, Features, Specifications and Availability Are Subject To Change Without Notice
:: Close Window

heres the link

http://www.fender.com/products/view_specs.php?full_partno=0100100&name=American+Vintage+%9162+Stratocaster%26reg%3B

It clearly says nitrocellulose finish. Nowhere does it mention a polyurethane base coat. I'd take this over what any layman from harmony central posts on a dubious review site. Ask yourself this, if you are finding it so hard to get details on this guitar, how did the reviewer you mentioned find them?


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Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:36 pm
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Ditto the 57

American Vintage ‘57 Stratocaster®
Model Number 010-0102-(Color#)
Series American Vintage Series
Colors (801)** White Blonde, Ash Body **add $150.00,
(803)* 2-Color Sunburst *add $50.00,
(806) Black,
(808) Ocean Turquoise,
(857) Surf Green,
(883) Ice Blue Metallic,
(Nitrocellulose Lacquer Finish)
Body Comfort Contoured Alder Body (**Ash On (801) White Blonde)
Neck 1-Piece Maple, “V” Shape,
(Nitrocellulose Lacquer Finish)
Fingerboard Maple, 7.25” Radius (184 mm)
No. of Frets 21 Vintage Style Frets
Pickups 3 American Vintage Strat® Single-Coil Pickups with White Covers
Controls Master Volume,
Tone 1. (Neck Pickup),
Tone 2. (Middle Pickup)
Pickup Switching 3-Position Blade:
Position 1. Bridge Pickup
Position 2. Middle Pickup
Position 3. Neck Pickup
(5-Way Switch Included in Kit)
Bridge American Vintage Synchronized Tremolo
Machine Heads Fender®/Gotoh® Vintage Style Tuning Machines
Hardware Nickel/Chrome
Pickguard 1-Ply White, (8 Hole)
Scale Length 25.5” (648 mm)
Width at Nut 1.650” (42 mm)
Unique Features “V” Shape Maple Neck,
Vintage Styling,
Synthetic Bone Nut
Strings Fender Super 250R, Nickel Plated Steel,
Gauges: (.010, .013, .017, .026, .036, .046),
p/n 073-0250-006
Accessories Vintage Tweed Case, Strap, Cable, 5-Position Switch Update Kit, “Ash Tray” Bridge Cover
Case Vintage Tweed Case
Introduced 1/1998
Notice Product Prices, Features, Specifications and Availability Are Subject To Change Without Notice
:: Close Window

http://www.fender.com/products/view_specs.php?full_partno=0100102&name=American+Vintage+%9157+Stratocaster%26reg%3B


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Post subject:
Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 10:18 am
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Thats so wierd... could SWEAR I looked up those exact specs, and somehow I never saw the "(Nitrocellulose Laquer Finish)" bit under the paint options. WOW that was strange. Maybe I just started to look too hard into finding out the paint stages used? I heard about the poly coat on a review at Musiciansfriend from somebody in Japan. Either way, thank you for posting that for us. It would still be interesting to know the steps they take and number of coats they use in the painting process, its so beautifully done.


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Post subject:
Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:01 am
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unfortunately it is true.

i have a '62 avri in oly white...(soo vicious)
and i had this same question about a year ago...i did a bunch of research via wildwood guitars...harmony central...and various other forums...

there is a reason why they distinguish "Thin Skin" from regular nitro-cellulose laquer...its because "Thin Skin" is exactly what the name implies...that is also why it is featured on the AVRI hot rod '62 and '57

its also why wildwood guitars specializes in their own "thin skin" finish.

why they use the poly base coat is still a mystery...but alas it is true...
when i first read this a while back i was filled with despair...i just paid $1400+ on a brand new AVRI only to find out for a few hundred more i could have had thin skin??

it pissed me off for weeks, but then you know what?? i got over it.

the lacquer on the guitar will age quite nicely (i have had my oly white for about a year and its turning more and more cream colored)

the lacquer will still check if you expose it to extreme temps...aka...it was in the trunk of your car overnight in winter and then you brought it in your house and just opened the case right up...smoke and UV light still will age your guitar but it wont change the fact that it is in fact poly underneath...sound wise...lets be real...youre talking about a brand new guitar that is going to take at least a decade to really break in and start to "open up"
the fact that the lacquer is on the outside will make the guitar age a lot quicker and more graceful.

i doubt any of us (although i would believe it) can tell the difference on a recording of a poly strat v. a thin skin...i am sure there are subtle tonal differences but not any that the average...or even seasoned musician can distinguish...this seems to me to be more of an academic problem v. a real one...and this is coming from someone who wanted to can his axe the second he heard there was poly on it...i've grown up since then...

i hope im not coming off as a snob or an $@! because that is not my intention...i just wanted to share with you how i went from where you are now...justifiably upset that you did get what you thought you paid for...but at the same time...it will all be alright!

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07 American Vintage '62 Re-Issue Strat
(olympic white)
07 Gibson Les Paul Vintage Mahogany
(cherry red)
07 Gibson Melody Maker
(vinatge sunburst)
01 Gibson L-00 Acoustic
(vintage sunburst)
Mid-90's MIM P-Bass
(sunburst)
Little Martin Acoustic


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Post subject: Re: New American Vintage 57 Strat's
Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:20 am
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nyctom21 wrote:
Hello my Fender Brothers(and Sisters) ... I am hoping someone can clear up a question I have regarding my American Vintage 57 Strat...

my question is about the finish..

Is it true that there is a poly finish on these guitars in addition to the nitro laquer finish?

My 57 was manufactured in Dec 2007 .. and purchased by me, new, in Feb 2008..


I had previously posted a similar question about my Sunburst AVRI 62 (1992) but never drew such a response as yours. They paint looks thick on mine, it must have a poly basecoat. I was really hoping it was pure lacquer, but I don't think it is...


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Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:30 am
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Jarabolos,
That was a very eloquient and intellegent post, thankyou for your input. I'm very prepared to accept i'm wrong in my belief and will gladly embrace the fact if someone could tell me why fender would do such a thing. It makes no sense. It would be labour intensive which would lead to extra cost not a reduction in price.
Could it be that the paint itself has some form of polyurethane base?
Theres nitro finishes and nitro finishes though and nitrocellulose can be applied quite thickly. For example my aftermarket strat body has a nitro finish thats like glass, very shiney and very hard, ok not poly hard. Its the complete opposite to my 57hotrod which seems like its going to crack and fall off the guitar if you so much as look at it wrong.


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Post subject:
Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:44 am
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im re-doing a bunch of the research so i can bring definitive proof!

so far just as a memory refresher...the time machine, nos, and custom shops are all true nitro thin skin...not to mention the hot rods...

i think i remember hearing that a true nitro job is very time consuming and laborious...aka...expensive!

the poly undercoat gives a thickness to the paint job that gives some heft and substance to the guitar and also adds to the overall durability...

there is a process...fullerplast??
dont quote me yet...this is all from memory here...thats why i am going to re-look up some of this stuff...

regardless i thought this would be some food for thought for a bit while i find the proof you so deserve!

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07 American Vintage '62 Re-Issue Strat
(olympic white)
07 Gibson Les Paul Vintage Mahogany
(cherry red)
07 Gibson Melody Maker
(vinatge sunburst)
01 Gibson L-00 Acoustic
(vintage sunburst)
Mid-90's MIM P-Bass
(sunburst)
Little Martin Acoustic


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Post subject:
Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:50 am
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The Research Continues! :

i am not going to take credit for this...i got this off of some guy "Ibanezcollector" on another site... but this helps...i will find more proof and post as i collect...


"All Fender Guitars made since 1968 are Polyester coated. Lacquer is put on top of the poly to satisfy the general publics belief that Nitro Cellulose (nitro) Lacquer finished guitars "breathe", "dry" and generally have become the bottom line for creating great tone. I'm talking USA, Vintage collectable instruments that the general public has bought, traded, and sold for over 50 years. They came from the Fender factory with a hard plastic jacket underneath it. A suffocating wolf, masquerading under a cloak of Lacquer Fender later switched to 100% Poly and UltraViolet cured Resin on Squire, Mexican, Japanese, some USA and all other imports till this day.


Here is what Mark Kendrick masterbuilder at Fender said.

Pardon my typos. I've lost alot of brain cells in my day. Could it be the 'Nitro'.

The first Fender lap steel was finished in black enamel. When Doc Kauffman and Leo formed K&F guitars in 1945, their original instruments, including the amplifiers, were finished in a lead based, wrinkle coat enamel. A nice shade of Battleship Grey. That was the only color available. After expermenting with different woods other than pine for guitars, they began using nitrocellulose lacquer. They used what was available to the furniture trade at the time.
The original colors were blonde, sunburst, etc... just like your Grandmas coffee table.

Custom colors were introduced in 1955. Once again they were enamel. The same material they used in the auto industry. The enamel would not adhere to the stearate based nitocellulose sanding sealer. Acrylic lacquers were then developed by Dupont to be sprayed on material other than metal. "Duco colors". In order for the paint to adhere, Fender began using a Sherwin Williams product called Homoclad. It was a penetrating, heavy solid, oil based sealer used as a barrier coat to to provide better adhesion for their guitars with custom colors. It was applied by dipping the guitar bodies directly into a 55 gallon drum, filled with the product. ALL Fender guitars produced after 1955 used this product until 1967, when Fender began experimenting with polyesters an undercoat.

By 1968, virtually all Fender guitar products used polyester as an undercoat, including necks. It's a two part product using Methyl Ethyl Ketone(MEK) as a catalyst. The reason the face of the pegheads were not sealed with polyester, is because type 'C' decals (under the finish) would not adhere to the product. While it is true a few guitars may have squeaked by with homoclad, when homoclad wasn't available, they used a Fuller O'Brian product called Ful-O-Plast. PLASTIC!!! It's obvious to me that those necks or bodies were stragglers, having to be reworked for some reason or another and not shipped after the change.

I'd like to make one thing clear... ALL FENDER GUITARS PRODUCED AFTER 1968 HAD A POLYESTER UNDERCOAT WITH A LACQUER TOPCOAT!!! There is no specific ratio. Enough poly was, and is sprayed to properly fill the grain while preventig a burn through while sanding.

In 1983, Fender began using polyuerthane as a topcoat. It cured quicker. It had better clarity. It had more depth and gloss, and didn't melt when you accidently spilled 151 on it. Fender then discontinued the use of polyester on the necks. Polyurethane is a 2 part product using a catalyst.

Fender has continued to use polyester, polyurethane, nitro.

Nitro is not a superior finish. An electric guitar doesn't 'breathe' at 120 db.

Billy Gibbons, Geddy Lee, Alex Lifeson, Joe Perry, Jimi Hendrix, Eric Clapton, Roccco Prestia, Jimmie Vaughn, Nils Lofgren, Vince Gill, Chet Atkins, Tom Hamilton, Lenny Kravitz, Merle Haggard, Don Rich, Darryl Jones, Mike Stern, Larry Carlton, Peter Frampton, Sting, Marty Stuart, just to name a few. More are available upon request.

Hope this helps,

Mark K."

_________________
07 American Vintage '62 Re-Issue Strat
(olympic white)
07 Gibson Les Paul Vintage Mahogany
(cherry red)
07 Gibson Melody Maker
(vinatge sunburst)
01 Gibson L-00 Acoustic
(vintage sunburst)
Mid-90's MIM P-Bass
(sunburst)
Little Martin Acoustic


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Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:09 pm
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Jarabolos, i stand corrected i was wrong. Thanks for putting me right.


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Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:24 pm
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thanks!

hahaha

as much joy as i get in "proving people wrong" it isn't why i wake up in the am.

to be honest a lot of people would probably be bitter...but i get a kick now out of being able to answer questions for people that i have had at one point...thats the only reason why i even bothered to dig up old searches!

as dorky as these forums can be from time to time and as self-righteous as people can come off...(no one on this thread or this forum for the most part)
i do believe in what forums stand for and i can sit around and just talk guitars all day.

anytime i had a real question or issue...whether it was regarding buying a particular type of guitar or on how to fix problems...the forums HAVE ALWAYS come thru...minus my questions on Mercury Magnetics upgrade kits for the Champ 600...but that is a moot point seeing as though i got tired of waiting for responses and just ordered the damn kit myself!
(its being installed as we speak!)

so although i get massive pleasure debunking myths and disproving people...i stand humbled because i am sure if not already...in the near future somebody will disprove me on something...and i cant wait!

its great exchanging ideas, and experiences...and most of all pics on these forums!
the one thing i do hate and after this i wont bring it up anymore is how no matter how awesome something is...amp...bass...guitar...custom shop or MIM, no one is ever satisfied with stock equipment...myself included...

i mean i guess we have the luxury of wanting to modify stuff but at the same time i think the essence of certain gear gets lost in this mindset of improve on something for the sake of improvement...i agree with that point in moderation but some people on this forum are fundamentalists when it comes to taking a perfectly good $1400+ guitar and not being 100% satisfied!

but alas i cannot point fingers because i am also guilty of such vices...

_________________
07 American Vintage '62 Re-Issue Strat
(olympic white)
07 Gibson Les Paul Vintage Mahogany
(cherry red)
07 Gibson Melody Maker
(vinatge sunburst)
01 Gibson L-00 Acoustic
(vintage sunburst)
Mid-90's MIM P-Bass
(sunburst)
Little Martin Acoustic


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