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Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 2:05 pm
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01GT eibach wrote:
2) Manufacturing: With all due respect, I do work in manufacturing. It is EXTREMELY common for components to be graded and bench tested on a manufacturing line to ensure quality. After all, these are musical instruments. It sounds PERFECTLY reasonable to me that there is a grading sheet done for each body to make sure the bad ones are culled out so that ones that score 5+ are scrapped, etc. It makes perfect sense, actually ... By matching the SN digit to the 0-4 body score, the company would guarantee that no 5+ bodies would be used.



I can totally understand grading components for quality control purpose like that. But when a "5" is found, that would normally be pulled out at that point, or, at the very least, never taken to the final production phase of being built and painted.

So I can't understand why they would go through the extra trouble (and money) to make sure the serial number reflects that, since anything that's gotten to that part of the production process has already been QA'ed and is ready to be built.


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Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 2:07 pm
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01GT eibach wrote:
It sounds PERFECTLY reasonable to me that there is a grading sheet done for each body to make sure the bad ones are culled out so that ones that score 5+ are scrapped, etc. It makes perfect sense, actually ... By matching the SN digit to the 0-4 body score, the company would guarantee that no 5+ bodies would be used.


Hi 01GT. No flak intended - it's an interesting new theory, and if there's something to it it will come out, now you've set the hare running.

Without a doubt manufacturers select between grades of timber and do QC throughout the building process to weed out duds. The QC tags are usually there to be seen in our guitars' neck pockets, pickup cavities and such places.

It is visible and obvious that different grades of wood (at least judging visually) get used at different price points in the catalog. A common grading system is the A to AAAAA designation, particularly familiar regarding acoustic soundboards, but used elsewhere too.

Even Fender, and particularly the likes of PRS, make a sales point of their higher grade woods - to raise the price on those ones, of course.

What is really seeming doubtful here is the idea that an opinion on a guitar's quality within a given line is being encoded into its serial number, after the rest of the building process is finished. By the stage the serial decal is being applied the guitar has passed all its timber QC: all that remains is finishing and assembly.

Just can't see what use it would serve to rate a guitar qualitywise once it is built, unless to differentiate by price. Otherwise, you're just telling those in the know, "don't buy this one", about a section of your stock.

Can't figure that out - but I'm listening out for more information.

It's a thought provoking thread, in any case!

Respects to you - C


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Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 2:20 pm
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Has to be purest bunk....
:D

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Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 3:03 pm
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Okay, let me respond to a few replies ... forgive the essay.
dgonz wrote:
So the grade is then... 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, Squier?

You might not be far off. Maybe 5-7 go to Squier or 8-10 are sold off to some B-market commodity vendor that deals in guitar components. It is anyone's guess, though. It could be anything...

Ceri wrote:
... What is really seeming doubtful here is the idea that an opinion on a guitar's quality within a given line is being encoded into its serial number, after the rest of the building process is finished ...

I don't agree with that at all. It is in fact very common to embed all kinds of info in serial numbers from washing machines to DVD players. Such info can often include almost anything. As an extreme example, the serial number of a seawater valve on a US nuclear submarine identifies down to which area of a particular quarry where the iron ore was mined from. Does that surprise you? Again, that is extreme, but hopefully you get my point. The point is that all types of things are commonly used in serial numbers.

dgonz wrote:
... But when a "5" is found, that would normally be pulled out at that point ... So I can't understand why they would go through the extra trouble (and money) to make sure the serial number reflects that

No, no, no. Think about it. It could be a last "sanity check". If the serialization process is requiring a 5+ it means that a bad body slipped through. Then it could be removed from manufacturing at that point ... as a last catch (even though it should have been pulled much earlier). Just because something is supposed to happen up the manufacturing line does not guarantee it will.

dxdgenert wrote:
There is a huge difference in QC'ing the finished product and actually "hand selecting" the highest graded products. One takes seconds the other...

No offense, but it sounds like it is you who are very unfamiliar with ISO-certified high-volume manufacturing methods. Here is why:

What you do not want is any "tribal knowledge" or "employee subjectivity" embedded in how any manufacturing job is performed. Your comment of "QC'ing the finished product" infers a very subjective check. To the contrary, what you want are explicit manufacturing procedures and checklists that dictate down to the smallest task what the employee does, what they are looking for, and how to properly document it. What you infer "takes too long" is in fact how all modern manufacturing is done these days.

I am not flaming anyone here. I only bring this up because I do not want forum readers to form their opinion based on other people's opinions citing themself as a "manufacturing expert" when (again, no offense) clearly they are not. That all being said, God only knows what that 4th digit really means... It is perfectly reasonable to think it might be a "guitar body grade". Then again, maybe it signifies what the assembler had for lunch.

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Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 5:34 pm
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My first gut reaction to this was that it was BS, but if this is based on a visual inspection of the wood from an experienced QC person, (rather than a listening test of the final product), then it's VERY possible.

Hey and I just checked mine to see that it was 0, so obviously i'm inclined to belive :)

-Eddie


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Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 6:03 pm
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I think if someone feeds me this line I my need this. And there is like 12 different kinds of Rosewoods Also the necks are finnished before they are put on the body. Where is the serial number :shock: on the neck thats has it finish already on it.

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Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 6:49 pm
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according to this theory my £200 95 squire series (yes its fender logo'd not squire) is a 0 and my £480 08 baja tele is a 9.

How do they grade instruments when they produce 100's if not 1000's a day. Do they have a 1,2,3 & 4 lined up that they check each and every guitar against.

Sounds like a lot of agro for no reward to me.


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Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 6:53 pm
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:lol: Nice one!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:


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Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 8:27 pm
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Interesting debate. I can see a rigid process and a trackable procedure in place for certain, very important and expensive components, like your submarine example. And even though this might be true for MIM models, I just have a hard time believing they would do all this for some lower-end guitars. The inventory division would have spreadsheets about where the wood was obtained, etc, and just like lot number for medicine, you can cross reference that against a batch of serial numbers to track something down, if it was ever needed, along with the time, date, and the actual employees that worked on it. This can all be done with good record keeping and software (as is done in the tech field) and doesn't necessarily need to be reflected to the user on the headstock of a guitar. Why? Because nobody will ever really need to know that much about that guitar right on the spot. Potential leaks (like this, if it's true) would prove disastrous to the company and force them to lose lots of product and completely change their serial number system. And all for what? Would that be worth it? They don't think there would ever be some disgruntled employee that would blurt this all over the internet to make his ex-employer look bad and lose money when the 3's and 4's don't sell anymore?

Even many firearms are just the next number in line, but that number can be tracked down on the manufacturer's end to get needed details. There's sometime s number that designates what finish the handgun is (nickel, blue steel, stainless, etc), but rarely the "grade" of it, since anything sub-par would not make it nearly that far anyway. But of course, being able to track down a murder weapon's origin is a little more important than being able to read the history of a $400 guitar just by glancing at it's "bar code" serial number.

I'd still be curious if there's any real truth to this. Of course, ir certainly COULD be done. Do I think it IS, for this line of guitars? Absolutey not, but I could be wrong. Just seems like a huge waste of time, money, effort and potential profit loss, for a system that isn't needed really in the first place.


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Post subject: strat
Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 8:39 pm
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i check my strat and its no. 2 almost crap :lol:

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Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 5:56 pm
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Personally, I don't believe this "tone number" thing. For the reasons many posters have already stated.

The obvious way to "test" this would be to ask people to give their MIM serial numbers. If there are all 10 digits in that "tone" position, that would prove it false.

So let's see some numbers, guys!

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Post subject: serial
Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 6:10 pm
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mine says 0 :P

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Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 6:39 pm
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orvilleowner wrote:
Personally, I don't believe this "tone number" thing. For the reasons many posters have already stated.

The obvious way to "test" this would be to ask people to give their MIM serial numbers. If there are all 10 digits in that "tone" position, that would prove it false.

So let's see some numbers, guys!


Well thats the interesting thing I havent seen a MIM with a 5,6,7,8,9.. in that position..ive looked on ebay.. and a lot of other MIM pics and even mine says 2 so it looks like it could be true :P


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Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 7:03 pm
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Well boys and girls you take take this information and keep it in your heads when you go out to buy Fender MIM guitars and possibly pass on a great guitar. Personally I will play all the guitars in my price range, if one does not speak to me, I'll walk out without buying one. I do not trust rating systems, just my ears and hands.

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Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 7:13 pm
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My fourth # is a 5. What the heck do I even own? How come it plays and sounds so amazing. Mine is a MIM HSS and it's just fine!!

I thinketh this to be a loadeth of crap!

Gridlok


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