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Post subject: Stratocaster 3-way switch
Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:37 pm
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Since answers to my question have gone completely off track, I'm going to ask it again.

In the early 1970s I had a strat with a 3-way switch. When I positioned the switch between the 1st and 2nd setting, I got this incredible sweet tone, kind of an aout-of-phase tone. Since I am no electronic wizard, can someone help me out on how to get that tone on a modern strat with a 5-way switch? Perhaps simply installing a 3-way switch.


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Post subject: Re: Stratocaster 3-way switch
Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:42 pm
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rmaddelein wrote:
Since answers to my question have gone completely off track, I'm going to ask it again.In the early 1970s I had a strat with a 3-way switch. When I positioned the switch between the 1st and 2nd setting, I got this incredible sweet tone, kind of an aout-of-phase tone. Since I am no electronic wizard, can someone help me out on how to get that tone on a modern strat with a 5-way switch? Perhaps simply installing a 3-way switch.



Asked and answered. It is apparently unique to that circuit and not reproducible with a five way. :wink:

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Post subject: Re: Stratocaster 3-way switch
Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:26 am
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rmaddelein wrote:
Since answers to my question have gone completely off track, I'm going to ask it again.

In the early 1970s I had a strat with a 3-way switch. When I positioned the switch between the 1st and 2nd setting, I got this incredible sweet tone, kind of an aout-of-phase tone. Since I am no electronic wizard, can someone help me out on how to get that tone on a modern strat with a 5-way switch? Perhaps simply installing a 3-way switch.


It did get a bit wild on that other thread, didn't it?

However, only after your question was answered as fully as it likely can be, on the first two pages of the thread.

To reiterate. The in between sounds on the three-way switch are in circuitry terms exactly the same as positions two and four on a five-way switch. In other words, a combination in parallel of the middle pickup and one of the others.

But. Some people, starting with Nikininja (who's ears are good), felt that there is some detectable difference in tone depending whether that circuit is obtained with a three-way or five-way switch. Various theories were put forward as to to how that might come about: there were some good ideas but I don't think a conclusive answer was found. Especially as one or two others doubted whether the tonal effect was real, or at least significant.

I do recall that someone explained that the nasal two-pickups-on sound does not in fact derive from the pickups being out of phase. That much seemed clear.

And I suspect that is as full an answer as you are likely to find. To be on the safe side I have just taken a look through the book Guitar Electronics for Musicians by Donald Brosnac. I don't swear to it, but as far as I can see there is nothing there to add to what I've just written.

But who knows - maybe someone else here has further information...

BTW: Sometimes threads here soar away in unexpected directions - occasionally into adolescent goofiness (like all our stuff about kebabs at Ian's house on the other thread). But that usually only happens after the original question has been answered as fully as seems possible. We're quite a conscientious lot really...

Good luck with your switching - C


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Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:50 am
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You don't have to wire anything differently to get the two extra sounds. The switch is a 'make before break' switch. There is a small area in the throw of the three way switch when both pickups are on. One area gives the neck/middle combination. The other gives the bridge/middle combinations

Guitarists noticed this, liked what they heard, and got the switches hot rodded. You just have to file in-between positions into the part of the switch that has the detents that hold the switch in the various positions. The switch will then stop and hold in those two new in-between positions.

Eventually (1977 I think), Fender started doing the work for you.

If you look at the 3 and 5 position switches sold by Stewart MacDonald, you'll see that they look exactly the same. No difference in terminals.


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Post subject: Re: Stratocaster 3-way switch
Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:18 am
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[quote="Ceri"][quote="rmaddelein"]

Also consider the evolution of the pickups, design, wiring and circuitry over the past 54 years or so where the Stratocaster is concerned. Different voices, different combinations, different woods.

I tend to side with niki with respect to the introduction of the five-way. No matter the characterisation of the mechanics of the two, to my ear there is a discernable difference in the tone of a vintage Stratocaster with a three-way switch carefully set at the 1/2 or 2/4 positions.

Doc

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Post subject: Re: Stratocaster 3-way switch
Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:26 am
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zzdoc wrote:
Ceri wrote:
rmaddelein wrote:

Also consider the evolution of the pickups, design, wiring and circuitry over the past 54 years or so where the Stratocaster is concerned. Different voices, different combinations, different woods.

I tend to side with niki with respect to the introduction of the five-way. No matter the characterisation of the mechanics of the two, to my ear there is a discernable difference in the tone of a vintage Stratocaster with a three-way switch carefully set at the 1/2 or 2/4 positions.

Doc

Amen :wink:

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Post subject:
Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 7:28 am
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It's not the switch. From a seemingly knowledgeable web site (guitarnuts.com):

Note that the pickup select switch (SW1) has only three electrical positions per pole. The 2 and 4 positions are merely mechanical detents where the common contact of each pole is shorted to both the 1 and 2 (2 and 3) electrical positions.

So, electronically the 3 position switch is the same as the five position switch. There is just a slight mechanical difference which has nothing to do with the signal path. Any difference in the sound must be attributable to something else. Maybe scatter wound wiring? Different materials? Nitrocellulose lacquer finishes?

Guitarists claim they can tell differences in sound attributable to all of these things and more. Maybe. But it's not the switch.


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Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 12:30 pm
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I thought the 5 way switch was created for that purpose to get the 2 and 4 positions that the 3 ways switch couldnt ...... :shock:


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Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 12:56 pm
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Hey, it suddenly just occured to me: is this simply an enquiry about how to wire a five-way switch? If so, then this is the diagram for the job:

http://www.fender.com/support/diagrams/ ... 02CPg2.pdf

If you don't want the bridge pickup affected by the second tone control then omit that tiny length of wire between the two middle tags on the side of the switch facing the pots.

I only offer this in the spirit of helpfulness. If that wasn't what was being asked after all then no insult is intended to anyone's intelligence...

Aside from that, my own instincts go with SoggyCrow's last post...

Good luck with it - C


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Post subject:
Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 1:30 pm
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Synkronized wrote:
I thought the 5 way switch was created for that purpose to get the 2 and 4 positions that the 3 ways switch couldnt ...... :shock:


But you do get the sounds of positions 2 and 4 with a three position switch. But you'll have to wedge the switch in place in the in-between positions. People did that back then. The three way switch and the five way switch are wired exactly the same way.


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Post subject:
Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 1:58 pm
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soggycrow wrote:
Synkronized wrote:
I thought the 5 way switch was created for that purpose to get the 2 and 4 positions that the 3 ways switch couldnt ...... :shock:


But you do get the sounds of positions 2 and 4 with a three position switch. But you'll have to wedge the switch in place in the in-between positions. People did that back then. The three way switch and the five way switch are wired exactly the same way.


Ok yeah yeah... that was my point but then again if they are wired exactly the same why some ppl keep saying it is not the same ? and it doesnt sound the same? i dont get it :shock:


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Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 7:23 pm
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I have been playing strats for many years now. I currently have three, all with 5-way switches. Position 2 on the 5-way does NOT give me the tone I got on that older strat when I put the 3-way switch between position 1 and 2. Everyone is saying that position 2 on the 5-way switch should sound the same, but I can't get that very distinctive sweet and hollow tone I got on the old strat. It kind of sounded like the tone on "Sultans Of Swing".


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Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 2:01 pm
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Synkronized wrote:
I thought the 5 way switch was created for that purpose to get the 2 and 4 positions that the 3 ways switch couldnt ...... :shock:
It was. Players like Hendrix and Clapton would use various methods (such as paper matches) to keep the switch from falling back to 1 or 3, when they had their 3-way at those in between spots that came to be positions 2 and 4 on the 5-way switch.

Matt

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Post subject:
Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 2:34 pm
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The 3-way switch had a "sweet spot" somewhere between position 1 and 2. It wasn't necessarily exactly where that postion is on the 5-way switch. It was a tone that position 2 on the 5-way does not capture. That "sweet spot" was some kind of out-of-phase or out-of-balance setting. I wish the pros at Fender could give me the answer.


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Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 2:59 pm
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The fender 'pros' are notoriously silent around these forums. Even Brad Traweek who runs this show states he knows nothing of guitar construction just webpage construction.
As i said before i hear the sweet spot too.


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