It is currently Mon Mar 16, 2020 2:38 pm

All times are UTC - 7 hours



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 56 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
Post subject: Stratocaster tone on an earlier model with a 3-way switch
Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 2:44 pm
Offline
Hobbyist
Hobbyist

Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2007 3:01 pm
Posts: 6
In the early 1970s I had a strat with a 3-way switch. When I positioned the switch between the 1st and 2nd setting, I got this incredible sweet tone, kind of a phased tone. Since I am no electronic wizard, can someone help me out on how to get that tone on a modern strat with a 5-way switch? Perhaps how to rewire the switch.


Top
Profile
Fender Play Winter Sale 2020
Post subject:
Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 4:31 pm
Offline
Rock Icon
Rock Icon
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:47 am
Posts: 15336
Location: In a galaxy far far away
sounds like you've found out something that i've long suspected that posistions 2&4 on a 5way switch sound better on a 3way when you balance the switch between the bridge and mid or neck and mid.
I thought i was going crazy till you spoke up, thanks mate

_________________
No no and no


Top
Profile
Post subject:
Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 5:22 pm
Offline
Aspiring Musician
Aspiring Musician

Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 10:26 am
Posts: 319
I read an interview with Buddy Guy where he talks about 50's Strats wtih 3-way switches. He said that they used to take a paper match and wedge the switch between the neck pick up and the middle pick up position to "That Tone."


Top
Profile
Post subject:
Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 7:23 pm
Offline
Rock Icon
Rock Icon
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 4:57 am
Posts: 13164
Location: Peckham: where the snow leopards roam
Hi rmaddelein: welcome to the Forum.

That "sweet spot" is just the middle pickup and one of the outer ones switched on simultaneously. A classic Strat sound - but one that Leo Fender never intended us to get, so the company didn't fit five-way switches to make it easier to get till after he'd sold out to CBS.

Positions two and four on a five-way switch should give you the same sound. Except...

Nikininja seems to be suggesting that bridge+middle or middle+neck sound better from a three-way switch jammed between positions, rather than simply with a five-way switch on positions two and four. You probably haven't been around long enough to notice yet, remaddelein, but Niki is seldom wrong about these things. But I must admit, I don't understand this one.

What's it all about?

Cheers - C


Top
Profile
Post subject:
Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 8:36 pm
Offline
Rock Icon
Rock Icon
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:10 pm
Posts: 13467
Location: Palm Beach County FL
[quote="Ceri"Nikininja seems to be suggesting that bridge+middle or middle+neck sound better from a three-way switch jammed between positions, rather than simply with a five-way switch on positions two and four. You probably haven't been around long enough to notice yet, remaddelein, but Niki is seldom wrong about these things. But I must admit, I don't understand this one.

You might be interested in the vintage of that knowledge. From this player it is at least 50 years. I have never been satisfied that the 5-way switch yields the same voice. You who have demonstrated your excellent command of the electronics of these systems may offer your impressions of how these circuits function keeping in mind that a '58 Strat had a very different powerplant from the gear we are using today. My instinct is that simply running the two through parallel is different from the 'bleed over' which either the 1/2 or 4/5 position of a 3-way. There was some kind of cancellation effect which yielded this unique voice. I used it quite a bit in those years.

Doc

_________________
"Another day in paradise!"


Top
Profile
Post subject: in pphase
Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 11:22 am
Offline
Professional Musician
Professional Musician
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:08 am
Posts: 2265
zzdoc wrote:
[quote="Ceri"Nikininja seems to be suggesting that bridge+middle or middle+neck sound better from a three-way switch jammed between positions, rather than simply with a five-way switch on positions two and four. You probably haven't been around long enough to notice yet, remaddelein, but Niki is seldom wrong about these things. But I must admit, I don't understand this one.

You might be interested in the vintage of that knowledge. From this player it is at least 50 years. I have never been satisfied that the 5-way switch yields the same voice. You who have demonstrated your excellent command of the electronics of these systems may offer your impressions of how these circuits function keeping in mind that a '58 Strat had a very different powerplant from the gear we are using today. My instinct is that simply running the two through parallel is different from the 'bleed over' which either the 1/2 or 4/5 position of a 3-way. There was some kind of cancellation effect which yielded this unique voice. I used it quite a bit in those years.

Doc


were the 50s strat middle p/u reverse wound, that may be the reason why there is so much difference in sound.. i still consider myself a newbie when it comes to strat electronics... :oops:


Top
Profile
Post subject:
Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 11:36 am
Offline
Rock Star
Rock Star
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 12:58 pm
Posts: 7714
Location: Planet Earth
Also the early pickups were all handwound thay say thats one of the reason the old ones sounded better to people. Plus I think the wires were right around the magnet.

_________________
The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.

Thomas Jefferson


Top
Profile
Post subject:
Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 10:25 am
Offline
Rock Icon
Rock Icon
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 4:57 am
Posts: 13164
Location: Peckham: where the snow leopards roam
Interesting stuff, Doc and CVilleira:

So happens I've recently purchased a set of vintage spec pickups from Bare Knuckle Pickups, and one of their selling points is that all their pups are hand "scatter" wound, to chase that early non machine manufactured sound. These pickups are for a building project I have underway: essentially a '50s spec neck on a '60s style body.

But it's going to a be a few weeks before I have that one together and can report back on the sound of those pickups. And I must admit it had never occured to me that I needed a three-way switch for tonal reasons. My prewired pickguard came from Bare Knuckle with a five-way in place. Do you think I now have to swap it out for maximum authenticity?

I don't smoke: no matchsticks handy for those in between settings...

Cheers - C


Top
Profile
Post subject:
Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 11:44 am
Offline
Rock Icon
Rock Icon
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:47 am
Posts: 15336
Location: In a galaxy far far away
Makes me think that a slider selector may be a good choice for tonal variation. A bass player in a country band i was in 19 odd years ago had a gibson bass with a sliding pickup. I've forever wondered about a sliding pickup guitar and its tonal variations since i saw it. Imagine a sliding pickup selector that would let you balance the inbetween sounds.


Top
Profile
Post subject:
Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 12:01 pm
Offline
Rock Icon
Rock Icon
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 4:57 am
Posts: 13164
Location: Peckham: where the snow leopards roam
nikininja wrote:
Imagine a sliding pickup selector that would let you balance the inbetween sounds.


Er, well, that's essentially the individual volume controls on a Les Paul or a Jazz Bass, isn't it? Total pickup output control.

But, Ninja, what is it that makes you feel the three-way switch gives nicer tones on the in between sounds than a five-way, please? You obviously have something in mind on that...

Cheers - C


Top
Profile
Post subject:
Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 12:31 pm
Offline
Rock Icon
Rock Icon
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:47 am
Posts: 15336
Location: In a galaxy far far away
I really dont know. I've never taken a 3way apart but i suspect its down to larger contacts making a slightly imbalanced selection. As you will know from lespauls you have to be really carefull when lowering the volume of one pickup whilst having both selected or it can be a 'all or nothing' affair. I believe the 3way operates more along those lines than it does to a 5ways definite settings.
Undoubtedly someone will be along to tell me the nature of the circuit is 'its either off or on, theres no balance control in that kind of circuit'. I dont know enough about electrics to argue that point or to validate my claim. Its just what i hear the guitar doing with a 3way. So you can get slightly more bridge than mid or more mid than neck. On the otherhand it could be that the pickups offer less resistance when selected on inbetween tones with a 3way.


Top
Profile
Post subject:
Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 12:36 pm
Offline
Rock Icon
Rock Icon
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 4:57 am
Posts: 13164
Location: Peckham: where the snow leopards roam
nikininja wrote:
On the otherhand it could be that the pickups offer less resistance when selected on inbetween tones with a 3way.


Ah-ha! Now, I know a lot less about electrickery than you, but that suddenly sounds convincing. I need to go and torture my brains to try and work out the consequences of that.

Anyone who knows is welcome to post about it and save me the agony, though!

Cheers - C


Top
Profile
Post subject:
Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 1:36 pm
Offline
Aspiring Musician
Aspiring Musician
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2007 2:41 pm
Posts: 456
Location: Basingstoke, UK
I've flippin' cracked it lads!

Image

_________________
Image
********
72 Custom Tele
50's Strat
Sqiuer Classic Vibe 50's P bass
Blues Junior
DG acoustic
Sparkly Thong


Top
Profile
Post subject:
Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 2:00 pm
Offline
Amateur
Amateur
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 7:29 am
Posts: 174
Location: Calstock, Cornwall, UK
Aha! So that's the answer!

As mentioned above, nearly every modern Strat except vintage models have reverse wound/reverse polarity middle pickups. This gives hum cancellation in positions two and four, but is unlikely to sound the same as vinatge middle pickup, and it's not meant to. The actual sound, by the way is not caused by phase cancellation in the electrical sense - on a 3-way, all the pickups would be parallel wired. The cancellation comes about because the pickups are sensing the string at different points, and the signals add together in ways that cause the bass frequencies to cancel, giving the thin scooped effect.
Apologies in advance if someone's already said this!
Bare Knuckle over here allow you to choose RWRP or not for your middle pickup for just this reason.

_________________
1996 Fender Precision '51 RI, Blond
2004 Fender Precision Std, Black-as-yer-'at
2007 Squier VM Precision TB, sunburst
Markbass CMD121H and ext cab


Top
Profile
Post subject:
Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 2:10 pm
Offline
Rock Icon
Rock Icon
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 4:57 am
Posts: 13164
Location: Peckham: where the snow leopards roam
Hi Telebass

Afirmative to what you say about Bare Knuckle's middle pickup. They offered the option of original winding/polarity, though I went with RW/RP. Flat topped magnets were available too, but I stayed vintage on that one. They've been doing prewired pickguards for a while now and I bought one of those. I'll post a pic sometime because it certainly is a very neat wiring and soldering job with quality components. I couldn't have bettered it.

By the way, where in Devon are you, may I ask? Surprising how many members we've had from there over the months...

Cheers - C


Top
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 56 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours

Fender Play Winter Sale 2020

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: