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Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 6:41 am
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The Strat is a world dominating formula and Fender will never be so insane as to replace it. Adding to the line could be a different matter, however.

Given that the likes of Ibanez started out as sheer Fender rip-offs, it sometimes feels frustrating to see them breaking new ground ahead of Fender, when Leo was always such an innovator.

My brother-in-law has a mid-price Ibanez SA something-or-other (who can remember Ibanez model numbers?) and I have to admit that for the price it plays very fast and beautifully; good pickup sounds and a nice bridge. Now I see the new-ish Ibanez SV5470F Prestige which has a very sleek body shape, curving on the front and the back faces to a 14 mm thick edge. Also, what looks like a neat and versatile advanced vibrato unit - that's what reviews have said, anyhow: I haven't handled one yet.

It's like Fender is allowing it's illegitimate offspring to outflank it in some areas. We often read on the Forum the complaints of the likes of Mr Shreddin', who can't find the superfast necks and HH configurations they want amongst the Strat family and no doubt end up leaving to buy product elsewhere.

Personally, my tastes in Stratocasters are becoming more traditional rather than the opposite. But I'd like to see the Company using a platform such as the Showmaster that Gil pictured above to do cutting edge R&R and put these other upstart companies back in their boxes. Let's take the battle to the enemy! (I jest - to an extent).

A long post: I've been simmering on that stuff for a while...

Cheers - C


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Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 7:13 am
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Ceri's post perfectly sums up my views on the Fender product line.

BUT....in search for what I wanted out of my next guitar, I bought a 2008 spec Ibanez Prestige in July.

The new Edge Zero Bridge is definately a winner in every way over older versions, but the guitar itself is, well, flimsy crap compared to a half decent Fender.

The "Prestige" neck is beautifully finished on the back, but the binding is applied terribly, some of the fancy position markers are wonky, the position markers along the side of the neck are not evenly spaced, the locking nut is offset to the bass side (made more noticeable due to the neck binding), and is set way deeper on one side of the neck than the other, leading to shocking intonation on low frets.

It played really badly even after an amatuer level "setup" i.e. truss rod/bridge/spring/intonation adjustments, which should be all that is needed for a top spec MIJ Ibanez in my opinion. Its now still with the luthier recieving a major fret dress, neck adjustment, locking nut replacement and setup (I kept it because it is cosmetically beautiful in terms of wood grain and had good soldig sustain on the notes that didnt buzz like crazy).

But it just feels a mixture of sterile, soul-less, and strangley more metalicl than living breathing wood, but also with a hint of fragility and innevitable quick wearing of budget finished (but pretty) components.

This is not isolated. In trying to buy this guitar, I travelled hunders of miles across the UK to shops that stocked the various Ibanez models I wanted to try. 2 x SV5470s were unplayable in a shop in Guildford. One had the high E hanging over the fret end due to a shockingly offset neck. The other had its super duper low friction nut barely cut at all and the strings just resting on it.

Also wanted one of the new FR series with the Tele like shape. They were built nice and solid, but the pickups were lifeless, and like my guitar, there is no way average-joe adjustments as per the manual would get the action and playabilty any where near the specs per the manual, such was the general oddness of the combination of neck, frets, body, and bridge. The angles just didnt add up on any of them.


Whilst waiting for my Ibanez to be turned into what it should have been (I've not doubt it will play superbly after the £80 I'll be handing over to the luthier), I did what I should have done in the first place.

Bought a HSS Highway 1 Tele, and am waiting for the Dimarzios to arrive ( :twisted: ), to satify the hard rock tone need, and am picking up an American Standard Strat (Olympic White), which may or may not receive a some slightly warmer pickups, but probably not, I like the way they sound already based on shop tests.

My tastes have also become less "modern" (superstrats and spiky V's!) and more about "feel" and "tone" over recent years. There is something inherently SOLID about even mid-priced Fenders that I havent found in my recent tests of pretty highly priced Japanese made guitars which often feel teutonic but yet fragile of finish (cosmo black chrome finish on the hardwear of Deans, Ibanez, Jacksons, ESPs, Schecters is a joke in terms of how long it lasts).

I'll take the Fender solidity, and feeling of them being ALIVE, over any modern appointments and features other brands add to their range eash year at NAMM.

Let Ibanez and the like launch a new highly complex bridge every 5 minutes (the one in the SV is ok, would be great if the fancy low frction nut actually was low friction). I'm happy to spend the rest of my days wrestling with a strat bridge and finding new and ingenius ways of keeping it in tune and playing double stops properly!


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Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 7:42 am
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That's an excellent post, Spacepig: thanks.

Not the first time a guitar has looked great on paper and disappointed in reality. I had a similar experience with the Yamaha SA503 TVL: hot to purchase - just couldn't find a reason to part with my money when I finally tried it out.

As a Fender partisan it's always good to hear about them coming out on top. I am seriously amazed at the QC issues you describe on the Ibanez, though. That's remarkable on a Japanese instrument, especially at that price. Shocking.

So after all that it sounds like the shredder market is one Fender could readily capture, if only they'd enter the fray. Even more argument for radical innovations with the Showmaster, say - or a reintroduced Performer platform (yes, Ceri's back on that old hobbyhorse again...).

Cheers - C


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Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 10:01 am
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jeffo46 wrote:
Why ruin a good thing, it'll never happen. Whoever told you that is yanking your chain.

No, the dude who started this thread is yanking OUR chain.

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Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 10:33 am
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I really dont think fender would want to interfere with their jackson lines. For shredder guitars jackson really cant be beat. my $@! rr3 came set up near perfection (courtesy of franks fairdeal music/ planet of sound) and their american made guitars are a thing of amazement and wonder. Their cheaper lines like the Js30 aren't great but are still very solid guitars, very much like the old japanese charvels. My JS30 dinky has certainly took a beating these last 8 years. I'd post a picture but i'm pretty sure brad removed the last one due to vulgar content. Its been under my bed with no case for the last 6 months. If i drove home and took it out it would still be in tune and somewhere near concertpitch too. Its twice the guitar my esp/ltd jh600 is, for less than half the money too. Try a custom shop soloist carved top, theres tone to intimidate a 58 lespaul and they cost a lot less than a fender custom shop guitar. Jacksons cheap guitars are for kids and people like myself who haven't quite lost their adolesence despite 18 years of trying and require some metal once in awhile. :D

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Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 12:15 pm
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vwralph wrote:
two words "new Coke"

Exactly... "New Coke" was so well received they had people pickiting outside the Coke Plant!
I think there was almost a riot. People were LiVid! :lol: :lol:

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Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:48 pm
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Ceri wrote:
It's like Fender is allowing it's illegitimate offspring to outflank it in some areas. We often read on the Forum the complaints of the likes of Mr Shreddin', who can't find the superfast necks and HH configurations they want amongst the Strat family and no doubt end up leaving to buy product elsewhere.


Right. Fender ought to be competing against Ibanez in the superstrat market. And I've wondered why they don't try to compete against PRS too?

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Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 6:52 am
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bss wrote:
vwralph wrote:
two words "new Coke"

Exactly... "New Coke" was so well received they had people pickiting outside the Coke Plant!
I think there was almost a riot. People were LiVid! :lol: :lol:


:oops: - Ah. I honestly only just realised what you were talking about there. Absent-mindedly skimming through I'd assumed people were refering to some issue concerning a different substance, which I know little about. I was kinda surprised the moderator hadn't deleted it... What a clot I am! :lol:

I guess it shows some of the company I keep... - C


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Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:08 am
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01GT eibach wrote:
jeffo46 wrote:
Why ruin a good thing, it'll never happen. Whoever told you that is yanking your chain.

No, the dude who started this thread is yanking OUR chain.


I think everyone in this thread is fairly clear that Fender are not planning to redesign the Strat, aren't we? And I personally wouldn't want them to: the Strat (and most of the rest of the Company) seems custom built to satisfy my own tastes.

I'm just suggesting there's additional models they could introduce to please other players, who currently have to look elsewhere:

orvilleowner wrote:
Ceri wrote:
It's like Fender is allowing it's illegitimate offspring to outflank it in some areas. We often read on the Forum the complaints of the likes of Mr Shreddin', who can't find the superfast necks and HH configurations they want amongst the Strat family and no doubt end up leaving to buy product elsewhere.


Right. Fender ought to be competing against Ibanez in the superstrat market. And I've wondered why they don't try to compete against PRS too?


'Zactly. I just sometimes worry that Fender have got so good at maintaining their traditions (which I'm very glad about) they perhaps don't spend quite enough time looking forwards. With exceptions, obviously...

Perhaps that's inevitable for a company at this point in its history?

Cheers - C


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Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:57 am
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Fender just dont need the superstrat market. FMIC owns jackson and charvel, the original superstrat builders. In my opinion all the japanese superstrat makers are really just poor copies of jackson/charvel guitars. Does it really matter if your superstrat has fender on the headstock if its made by Jackson Usa. They were a custom shop long before fender even dreamed of the idea of a custom shop, right in the midst of the cbs days. Tom anderson, schecter, ibanez and caparison owe far more to wayne charvel and grover jackson than they would ever let you know.
Jackson even produces instruments on a fender template. Korean for the squire budget, japanese for the mexican/japanese fender budget, Usa and custom shop, all on a par for quality with the corresponding fender branded guitars.
Let fender make strats and jackson make superstrats, if the 2 companies aren't cousins they are atleast close flatmates.

A little sidenote.
Wayne charvel was drafted in by Gibson to produce the 'WAYNE' brand of guitars in the mid 90's. Funny how gibson never went for a superstrat either.

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Post subject: new strat model
Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 10:56 am
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Fender stratocaster is like what
a harley davidson fatboy, heritage, softail etc. represents
the core of the company. change the shape and theyll have to change their whole marketing strategy.

2008 changes were almost very suddle imo for the fear of losing their fender clients.
gibson has had the les paul shape and sg shape for a long time,
they wouldnt change either.

a change can be, new custom paint jobs on non custom shop models.


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Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 2:01 pm
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vwralph wrote:
two words "new Coke"


My Thoughts exactly!


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Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:08 pm
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nikininja wrote:
Fender just dont need the superstrat market. FMIC owns jackson and charvel, the original superstrat builders.


That may be true. Their current markets may let them sell all of the guitars they want and need to sell. But there could come a day when they want to expand their sales. That's when they have to try to take someone else's share of the market ....

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Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 9:19 pm
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. And I've wondered why they don't try to compete against PRS too?[/quote]

Until the SE's PRS was strictly a boutique market. They didn't have the range of product and price point that Fender did. The SE's are spectacularly well made instruments and have the fit and finish of their MIA cousins. PRS has a QC team on their line in Korea with a magnifying glass on everything that comes out. It's the equivalent of the Fender Custom Shop at a MIM price, but still a limited range of product. Sometimes I wonder if the sheer size of Fender doesn't have certain drawbacks. :?

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Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 9:55 pm
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I guess the Showmaster is trying to compete against certain PRS models. But they aren't pushed that much and for some reason they just don't seem to have the pizzazz of PRS, I can't explain it.

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