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Post subject: Re: '61 body with a '72 factory four bolt neck.
Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:51 am
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Here is a full pic of the body without the pickguard. You can see the nail marks, the dowel marks, and the pin router marks.

Image

Here's another pic where you clearly see the pin router mark.

Image

As mentioned by stratmangler, the Special stamp explains why the neck differs from what you would typically find on a '72 neck. The headstock shape and decal are 100% correct to a '72 neck, though. The tuning keys are obviously not original, as they are aftermarket Gotoh tuners. The saddle is aftermarket as well.

To recap:

Body
6-61 dated body.
23rd week of 1961 tone pots.
Dowel marks.
Nail marks.
Pin Router marks.
Correct weight.
Correct case.
Correct serial number.

Neck
Correct headstock shape.
Correct decals.
X. Armenta stamp (worked for Fender through the 70's)
1972 date stamp.
Special stamp to explain differences in neck.


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Post subject: Re: '61 body with a '72 factory four bolt neck.
Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:07 am
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Retroverbial wrote:
There's a lot of things I'd gladly pay $1800 for.

A Rolex Submariner...a combat-tuned Kimber 1911 in .45ACP...a crated NOS L78 for my Super Sport Chevelle.

That guitar ain't even in the running.

:lol:
Arjay


I'm a total sucker for vintage guitars, especially one begging for a second lease on life. Almost every vintage guitar I've owned has had significant issues, but I'm A-ok with that. The first guitar I ever bought was an '85 MIJ strat with a badly damaged bridge cavity. It featured one of those floating tremolos, which look really cool, but generate lots of stress on the body. Had that guy fixed up by a local luthier and gave it to a friend in need of a quality electric. I've owned a 60's ES-335 with a completely busted off headstock (repaired by the same luthier), '72 Rickenbacker 4001 bass with dead electronics (rewired by a local tech), 70's Guild SG-100 with a split in the headstock where the tuning keys sit, and a completely abused 1951 Gibson J-45 (completely overhauled by the same luthier). This isn't a hobby I take lightly, I truly admire these instruments.


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Post subject: Re: '61 body with a '72 factory four bolt neck.
Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:11 am
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Not buying it. :roll:

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Post subject: Re: '61 body with a '72 factory four bolt neck.
Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:44 am
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shimmilou wrote:
Not buying it. :roll:


Any reason in particular?


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Post subject: Re: '61 body with a '72 factory four bolt neck.
Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 6:44 pm
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You mean besides all the reasons given so far? :lol:

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Post subject: Re: '61 body with a '72 factory four bolt neck.
Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:01 pm
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shimmilou wrote:
You mean besides all the reasons given so far? :lol:


All the reasons?

The three nail marks were mentioned, but they can be seen in the pics.

The neck pocket shadow was mentioned, but that’s not something you’d find in a ‘61 body.

The grain mismatch was mentioned, but that is absolutely baseless. How many completely stripped ‘61 bodies have you seen? Because I’ve seen burst finishes with mismatched grain from the Pre-CBS era. Everything else points to this being from 1961, from the weight, the markings, the routing marks, serial number, even the pots and case. You mean to tell me all these details are trumped by mismatched grain? :lol:


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Post subject: Re: '61 body with a '72 factory four bolt neck.
Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:42 pm
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That you're ecstatic about paying $1800 for a partscaster of dubious pedigree is all that matters.

So stop acting like a douche nozzle and enjoy your guitar.

:roll:
Arjay

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Post subject: Re: '61 body with a '72 factory four bolt neck.
Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:22 pm
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Retroverbial wrote:
That you're ecstatic about paying $1800 for a partscaster of dubious pedigree is all that matters.

So stop acting like a douche nozzle and enjoy your guitar.

:roll:
Arjay


Dubious based on what, exactly? A few of you keep saying that but all you’ve pointed to is mismatched grain. It’s clear as day the pickguard, tuning keys, saddle, knobs and wiring are not original. But that’s typical of a used guitar. There are so many markers that are accurate to a ‘61 body.

The neck clearly has some differences from a standard ‘72 neck, but it has a special stamp. The special stamp is not uncommon to find on necks and bodies from this era. The special stamp almost always refers to the item being different from the standard product. I’d understand being skeptical if the headstock shape was off or the decals were wrong but that isn’t the case. Hell, someone pointed out a single patent number being an issue, but that’s absolutely correct to a ‘72 neck.

For whatever reason, a few of you are looking for whatever tiny thread you can find to naysay the guitar. I don’t get it.


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Post subject: Re: '61 body with a '72 factory four bolt neck.
Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:26 am
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Retroverbial wrote:
That you're ecstatic about paying $1800 for a partscaster of dubious pedigree is all that matters.

:roll:
Arjay


The body may or may not have been manufactured in 1961 but any mystique or soul or anything else which should make that special has been long since raped from it.

The case looks old. Does this demonstrate provenance of the body? Of course not, it's just an old case, so rattling on about it does nothing to help your cause. You have an old case (which has a great deal more mojo than the body). Enjoy it.

The neck could be from '72. It is obviously cool that it is almost 50 years old but it isn't really a good example of anything aside being a confusing mismatch.

Was it worth what you paid for it? Well it was to you. If you think it sounds and plays like an $1800 guitar then it was money well spent (for you).

Has this been an interesting thread? Absolutely. I learn't about the dowel marks in the back which I was unaware of previously, so that was cool.

I find myself wondering what I would do if I had been given it and really can't come to any conclusions. The body is so unpleasant in its current form I would probably consider restoring it to (what I assume) was its original burst finish. At least it then wouldn't look so dog ugly, and would remove the treacle coating. I would probably also consider reinstating the original pickup cavities - certainly at the front. Maybe that would bring back the lost whatever it is that the body seems to lack.

The neck I am pretty ambivalent over.

But none of this matters. It is your guitar you play it and enjoy it and thank you for sharing it with us. It has been an experience.

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After all this time I should be better.


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Post subject: Re: '61 body with a '72 factory four bolt neck.
Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:15 am
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Oliade677 wrote:
The three nail marks were mentioned, but they can be seen in the pics.

I only see one above the bridge (and the location does not look correct to me).
There should be one on the other side of the bridge.
As mentioned, the one between the neck and middle pickups is from a '62 style pickguard.

Seriously... there are a LOT of CBS era $2000 Strats available that are in much better and less questionable condition than this one.
Just the body routing has destroyed any vintage value to the body IF it is an actual '61 body. The neck too is questionable as to whether it is an actual '72.

As to the claim that nothing was done to the guitar by the 2nd owner or after that... I'm not sure exactly when GraphTech started making those saddles but I'm reasonably certain they were not available until the very late 80s. I replaced the saddles on my '78 and used "Mity-Mite" block saddles. I would have used GraphTech had they been available.

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Post subject: Re: '61 body with a '72 factory four bolt neck.
Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:22 am
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Its clear the best parts of this guitar, vintage or not are long gone. While the neck might still play fine the truss rod appears to need work. The body has been abused. The finish, pup routes and truss adjust gouge is really disgusting and I prefer wood grain finishes in general. The original bridge and pups are MIA and the wiring looks amateur at best. So many inconsistencies, the pencil date is probably a fake. The only thing that ties this imo to a 61 body, nothing. Nail holes and whatever else could all be faked. Originality is the key determining factor and they must be mutually supporting to be conclusive. The only conclusive Dtd. pieces from early 60's era are the potentiometers. This isn't even a nice looking partscaster, to bad.


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Post subject: Re: '61 body with a '72 factory four bolt neck.
Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:51 am
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What is this business about the truss rod being an issue? These are all '71 necks. Apparently they all need major truss rod help.

Image

Image

Image

Image

You've obviously made up your mind that it's not a '61 body and there's no amount of evidence that will change that. You're entitled to your opinion. You can choose to ignore all of the details that point to the body being from the era. That doesn't mean it isn't a vintage strat. It has a neck plate with serial that is accurate. It has a pencil date in a typical location that is accurate. It has pots that are accurate. The dowel marks are accurate. The nail marks are accurate. The pin router marks are evident throughout the original route. I won't even mention the case because that's apparently not allowed to be apart of the package (though you yourself say that mutually supporting originality is key). If you can look at all of those details and say, "yeah, totally not a '61 body," by my guest. I choose to look at the details and take the body for what it is.


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Post subject: Re: '61 body with a '72 factory four bolt neck.
Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:07 am
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Oliade677 wrote:
.......I'm a total sucker.......


:shock:

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Post subject: Re: '61 body with a '72 factory four bolt neck.
Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:14 am
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CB91710 wrote:
Oliade677 wrote:
The three nail marks were mentioned, but they can be seen in the pics.

I only see one above the bridge (and the location does not look correct to me).
There should be one on the other side of the bridge.
As mentioned, the one between the neck and middle pickups is from a '62 style pickguard.

Seriously... there are a LOT of CBS era $2000 Strats available that are in much better and less questionable condition than this one.
Just the body routing has destroyed any vintage value to the body IF it is an actual '61 body. The neck too is questionable as to whether it is an actual '72.

As to the claim that nothing was done to the guitar by the 2nd owner or after that... I'm not sure exactly when GraphTech started making those saddles but I'm reasonably certain they were not available until the very late 80s. I replaced the saddles on my '78 and used "Mity-Mite" block saddles. I would have used GraphTech had they been available.


The markings seem inline with bodies from the era. There is definitely a nail mark just below the neck pocket. Look at this absolute monstrosity of a '61 body..

Image

Same nail/screw marks. Another..

Image

I can't speak to the saddles, but they are obviously modern compared to everything else.


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Post subject: Re: '61 body with a '72 factory four bolt neck.
Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:15 am
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shimmilou wrote:
Oliade677 wrote:
.......I'm a total sucker.......


I add nothing to this thread.


:idea:


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