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Post subject: '61 body with a '72 factory four bolt neck.
Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:25 am
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So for starters, here we have what is supposed to be a 1961 body with a 1972 neck. The case is era correct to the early 60's and in reasonable shape considering the age. I was told by the seller the guitar was purchased in the early 80's as a backup for his band. The band was pretty casual, but he had a solid job and some money to spend, so this is what he ended up with. Supposedly, nothing has been touched or altered since he purchased the guitar. Unfortunately, plenty was done before that time.

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The body itself has, unfortunately, been routed. It is dated "6-61" under what appears to be the original lacquer. The routing in the bridge pickup cavity was professionally done while the neck pickup cavity was clearly done by an amateur.


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Here you see the dowel marks on the back of the body, one near the neck and the other near the strap button.


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Here you see the era-correct pots, dated to the 23rd week of 1961. This fits with the date written in the body. Both tone pots share the same code, though it appears the volume pot was changed at some point.


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The single-coil pickups have plastic leads, but share some characteristics of a vintage pickup of this era. I've yet to take any measurements on them. The humbucker is a 60's Gibson patent sticker T Top. The pickguard is potentially from the 70's.


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Though the neck is not original to the body, it is interesting in it's own right. It features the large Fender decal along with a "SPECIAL" stamp and the name of "X. Armenta." According to various posts, he was with Fender through the early 70's.


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What makes this neck particularly interesting is the factory 4-bolt setup, accompanied with what appears to be a "22 MAY 72B" stamp. By all accounts, Fender ceased the 4-bolt setup by 1970, though there were some stragglers left for 1971 builds. I searched several forums and did not come up with many hits on 1972 factory 4-bolt necks. Pretty neat!


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Hope you enjoyed! If anyone has any info, thoughts, opinions on the guitar, I'm all ears!


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Post subject: Re: '61 body with a '72 factory four bolt neck.
Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:42 am
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Crumbs!?!

Well that has certainly seen a life of some sort.

There are so many bits an pieces, seemingly old and not so old I really don't know what to think.

What did you pay for it, if you don't mind me asking?

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Post subject: Re: '61 body with a '72 factory four bolt neck.
Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:18 am
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Definitely an oddity. Aspects of it are undoubtedly from 1961, but then there are things like the Gotoh tuners which can't be any earlier than the 80's. The neck itself is quite odd, being a factory 4-bolt from 1972. If I recall correctly, I paid $1,800.


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Post subject: Re: '61 body with a '72 factory four bolt neck.
Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:18 pm
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It is such a mish mash that I'm struggling here.

If the body is a Fender from 61 then why would a clear finish body (or posibly sunburst originally) have such awful grain matching?. If it was a solid colour from the factory this would be evident in the cavities. So, we just have the word of someone who bought the guitar from someone who told them it was a 61 Fender body.

The neck is similarly such a concoction of elements that I am struggling with that as well.

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Post subject: Re: '61 body with a '72 factory four bolt neck.
Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:24 pm
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Fortunately, we have much more than just a story. We have the guitar itself! The obvious is the era correct case, pots, and selector switch. So we at least have a few things that directly link it to Pre-CBS era. As for the body, it has a 6-61 penciled-in date code, which was common practice at the time. It appears to fall beneath original lacquer, which can be seen throughout the original route. The date code even matches up with the dates on the pots. You see other common markers like the dowel marks, the circle left behind by the pin router in the mid pickup cavity (seen elsewhere, but very evident in the pickup cavity from the pics provided), nail marks, and the weight of the body. I don't think mismatched grain is sufficient enough to rule this out as being a legitimate 61 body, given all the other evidence.

As for the neck, what about it gives you doubt? All the markings, from the decal on the headstock, the name stamped on the back (Armenta worked for Fender in the 70's), the date stamp, point to an early 70's neck.

With how many fakes are out there these days, I can understand being cynical. To me, there is more than enough evidence to prove this guitar has legitimate vintage parts.


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Post subject: Re: '61 body with a '72 factory four bolt neck.
Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:41 pm
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Let's see the nail holes in the top of the body beneath the pickguard area, Hoss.

There should be three of them.

And only one patent number on the headstock?

I think not.

How about the paint-stick shadow that should be visible in the neck pocket?

Very convenient that the area isn't documented with a photo.

Partscaster at best, and some of them very dubious IMO.

Argue with me if you wish (you might even win).

Hell, argue with God Almighty (He's often quite merciful).

But take that guitar to an acknowledged reputable appraiser such as Gruhn and try arguing with them (they'll have none of it).

Post their findings.

That is, if you dare......

:roll:
Arjay

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Post subject: Re: '61 body with a '72 factory four bolt neck.
Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:34 pm
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One
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Regarding the neck pocket shadow, that actually didn’t start until late 1962, so that’s a non-factor.

Regarding the single patent code, you might want to look at other 1972 Strat necks. Here’s one such example.

https://reverb.com/item/25950244-fender ... rce=google

You come across as someone that wants this to be a fake vintage Strat. Any reason in particular? I’ve presented the guitar exactly as it is. I’m not offering it up for sale, I’m not trying to pimp my YouTube channel or other business venture. Simply sharing a vintage Strat with a group of folks that should be excited to see another classic unearthed.

For the record, I would be more than happy to have this gone over by an expert.


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Post subject: Re: '61 body with a '72 factory four bolt neck.
Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:42 pm
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There's a lot of things I'd gladly pay $1800 for.

A Rolex Submariner...a combat-tuned Kimber 1911 in .45ACP...a crated NOS L78 for my Super Sport Chevelle.

That guitar ain't even in the running.

:lol:
Arjay

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Post subject: Re: '61 body with a '72 factory four bolt neck.
Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:52 am
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The neck does have a lot of similarities to that used on the 25th Anniversary model, although the decal, number of string trees and tuners are wrong.

The body has indeed seen a life. I am assuming the bridge pup cavity was routed first and the neck pup cavity butchered out subsequently by whoever covered the body in treacle. This is my assumption as no craftsman could stop himself trying to clean up the abortion under the neck pup while he had a router in his hand.

Arjay is of course right in that it is a partscaster....obviously. Some of those parts may of may not have been with the original body, but the guitar has had such a chequered past that any part is just as likely to have come out of a box of bits as to have left a factory with any of the other bits.

I would like to see a picture of the body so all the marks can be seen in context. Close up shots are all well and good but you don't get a feel for the over all.

The case is of no consequence in dating anything. Back in the day when you bought a second hand guitar from a shop they would go out back and find you a case that fitted, usually the most knackered one in the heap. So, like the rest of the guitar, we can't assume the case left the factory with any one part of the assembly which is now a guitar. All we can say is the case looks old.

I'm not saying any of the parts aren't what you think they might be but certainly any mojo the body may have had (if it is indeed a 61) has been raped from it and has been dead and buried for many years.

As I mentioned before it is the quality of the original body that is really bugging me. The grain is badly matched and dead knots filled. I can see how that might have been a CBS body when pretty much anything that was guitar shape was allowed out of the door.... but a 61?

At the end of the day none of this matters. If you like it and are happy you paid $1800 for it what does it matter what we think?

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Post subject: Re: '61 body with a '72 factory four bolt neck.
Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:03 am
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John Sims wrote:
If you like it and are happy you paid $1800 for it what does it matter what we think?


Absolutely indisputable.

Plug it into a Vox Super Beatle or a Kustom K200 and let it rip.

Arjay

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Post subject: Re: '61 body with a '72 factory four bolt neck.
Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:07 am
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Oliade677 wrote:
One

....Regarding the single patent code, you might want to look at other 1972 Strat necks. Here’s one such example.

https://reverb.com/item/25950244-fender ... 1972-maple?


Which also has a bullet truss rod and two string trees?

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Post subject: Re: '61 body with a '72 factory four bolt neck.
Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:02 am
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I wonder if the SPECIAL stamp is because the construction differs from the standard production line.

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Post subject: Re: '61 body with a '72 factory four bolt neck.
Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:09 am
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Oliade677 wrote:
One
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If it is a body from '62 the hole nearest the gouged out mess is where a pickguard screw would been.
Not a nail hole.

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Post subject: Re: '61 body with a '72 factory four bolt neck.
Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:13 am
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This bit doesn't look great.
The truss rod nut should not be protruding from the end of the neck.

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Post subject: Re: '61 body with a '72 factory four bolt neck.
Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 5:39 am
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I love seeing stuff like this.

I'm not a fantastic player, but I love guitars, mods, and discussions of parts/repair/upgrades.

Thanks for sharing. And grats on your purchase.


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