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Post subject: Vintage Guitars - Really any better for playing?
Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 5:52 pm
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So I was at a high end vintage guitar shop the other day and I was looking at some old strats and wondering, "could it really sound any better than what we have today?" Honestly, didn't these thing basically improve over the years with technology? On the old ones the tuning machaines and the bridge hardware just look like cheap junk. Now I know that they have value based on their absolute rarity, but the only reason I would ever be interested in one would not be to play it but to resell it in a couple of years for (hopefully) a profit. I can't believe the old ones play better or sound better. Am I wrong? And is the whole "vintage" thing kind of joke? They had old Gibsons in the shop that were just plain junk and they wanted $20k + for them. These guys were a ridiculous bunch of snobs about guitars!


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Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 6:55 pm
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Well, I wouldn't say they're a joke, but old doesn't = mojo imo.

I've played several older Fenders (Strats & Teles) and just being old does not make it a player. I do think they had a better selection of quality wood back in the 50s & 60s though.

That said, some of the less exspensive production line guitars Fender makes today are as good or better than some of the older production line Fenders of old.

Leo Fender was not producing Stratavarious type guitars. Fender was basically producing quality Model T type guitars that did the job and were made as cheaply as possible.


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Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 9:02 pm
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Vintage definitely does not mean quality. It does mean scarcity, though. And with any diminished supply, the price goes up accordingly. As players, it is up to us to tell which ones have the magic...


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Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 9:28 pm
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01GT eibach wrote:
Vintage definitely does not mean quality.


A lot of people refuse to accept that. There were quality issues from Day One, like strings falling off of the fretboard. But most of the early problems were with the plastic parts (too brittle, too easily worn away, not quite white (green pickguards!?!?)) and the nitro finish (it wore off easily and the red color faded away in the earliest 3-tone sunbursts (Gibson had the same problem with the red color)).

Curiously, those early quality issues became "endearing" and acceptable (we love the dirty worn maple fretboards, the green pickguards, and pickup covers that wear away to expose the black bobbins). But the quality issues of the '70s strats were not acceptable. I guess the feeling is that the Company should have gotten things better by then.

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Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 9:40 pm
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I like old guitars because of their "vibe", not because they're better then new ones. Overall, like cars, guitars are much better made today then they were 30 to 50 years ago. Manufacturing tolerances have gotten nice and tight. How often does anyone have to shim the neck of their new Strat these days? Almost never. It used to be a common thing.

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Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 9:57 pm
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cryingstrat wrote:
I like old guitars because of their "vibe", not because they're better then new ones. Overall, like cars, guitars are much better made today then they were 30 to 50 years ago. Manufacturing tolerances have gotten nice and tight. How often does anyone have to shim the neck of their new Strat these days? Almost never. It used to be a common thing.


This is likely the most relevant observation with respect to the discussion. I've seen Eric's "Brownie" at EMP and a '58 with a serial # close to my old one on the wall at Rudy's Music Stop on W. 48th St. Manhattan with a 38K price tag. We've all seen them , somewhere or another in that fashion, and most of them look like 'death warmed over.'

Yet, there are some around, like the 20 year-old Clapton, on it's way from Texas, which have been carefully preserved, and those might well be worth the playing.

By the way....that Eric Johnson poster that went up on another thread......
am I not seeing correctly or has the high E bridge saddle been replaced on that guitar??

Goodnite everybody!!

Doc :?

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Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 6:00 am
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One genuine advantage of old instruments is the worn-in necks many of them will have. So many people handle an old neck with delight; for the perfectly simple reason that the abrupt edges of the fingerboard have been worn to comfortable curves.

Modern American Strats offer their rolled edges, which as far as I know is nothing other than an attempt to emulate the feel of those old necks. As we discussed elsewhere, James Tyler, builder of “super strats”, achieves a similar thing in a more luthier type way: he says he modelled his excellent necks on the feel of a vintage Fender in his possession.

Some other more nutty ideas in this field: my father is a good amateur violin player, and has shelves full of books and magazines arguing about the notion that old timber has changed in mysterious ways compared to new, and sounds better accordingly.

The wild voodoo over this sort of thing in the guitar world is as nothing compared to stuff that gets talked about rare fiddles - but we are going that way as fast as our little legs will carry us. I read an article about the latest top-line Yamaha guitars: they have introduced a process that subjects a guitar to a mechanical shaking of particular cycles, frequencies and intensities that is supposed to reproduce the jolting effect of riding around on the back seat of a car for several years. The idea being that this causes structural changes in the timber that aid better tone. Uh-huh

Personally, I just make a pilgrimage in the name of tone once a year to the ancient Temple of Bacchus in the Lebanese mountains to sacrifice a PRS to Dionysus , and it seems to work for me. I’d recommend that to anyone.

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Cheers - C


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Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 7:06 am
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My experience has been that over the years, the weather has some kind of affect on the wood and the pickups and in some instances does make for a better sounding instrument than newer models.

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Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 7:35 am
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zzdoc wrote:
By the way....that Eric Johnson poster that went up on another thread ..... am I not seeing correctly or has the high E bridge saddle been replaced on that guitar??


You have good eyes, Doc. It sure does look like that high E bridge has been replaced with a bright shiny clean newer one. I bet he still has the old one ... it was probably gouged and breaking strings.

Those old bridge saddles tended to do that. I take a file to mine to remove burrs. I put Graph Tech saddles on my main mid-'70s players and that ended my string breakage problems.

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Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:00 am
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I like the 9.5 neck radius and medium-jumbo frets of non-vintage strats. Those things didn't come on the old-timers.


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Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:27 am
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Ceri:

For that '60's vintage vibe one would necessarily have to expose the woodto a different type of atmosphere, Bacchus not-withstanding.

Doc :shock:

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Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 9:14 am
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in my experience it depends on the guitar, i had a 1979 aniv. model strat that sounded incredible, Ive had Gibson, some great , some not.
but i can say that this new ash strat w/ the maple neck is the best guitar that Ive ever played, i cant find anything to get buyers remorse over, i had to wait 2 months for it because i wanted the tobacco burst w/ the maple neck.
i read a post on another forum , the guy said that his made him a better player , i thought he was full o crap until i got mine, i can see where he would think that , the guitar does not limit the player. and the sound has no equal, what else is there?
i was considering a vintage , i am glad i didn't,
foomoto


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Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 5:52 pm
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If you're comparing head to head--it depends.

But if it was well made then, and it was taken care of--or restored--it should still sound great.

Also consider what some people like about older guitars--the pickup magnets change over time, losing some of their magnetic properties & that can affect the sound--some people find they like the warmer sound that can produce--although it can make them sound thin or harsh as well.

It's all in how it ages.

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