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Post subject: Different Pickup Sound in Different Positions?
Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 11:07 am
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Hi,
Not sure this is the right forum for a general question like this, so apologies if it is not.

I have been wondering what accounts for the difference in sound when the same pickups are used in different positions on, for example, a Strat (or any guitar, for that matter).

If the pickups are the same, does the physical positioning make that much difference to the sound, because the sound is different acoustically at the bridge than it is at the neck?

I can imagine that the fact that the bridge pickup in a Strat is on an angle might also make a difference to the sound, but what about the middle pickup?

Or is the wiring done differently with each pickup, under the scratchplate?

Grateful for any suggestions which clear up my confusion.


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Post subject: Re: Different Pickup Sound in Different Positions?
Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 4:17 pm
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The string has a broader path of travel moving away from the bridge.
There are also differences in the audible overtones due to the harmonic nodes on the string.
At the 12th fret, you will hear a relatively pure tone. At the 5th fret or 24th fret you will pick up the octave harmonic. Halve the distance again and you pick up another harmonic. The neck pickup is in between the 2nd and 3rd harmonic nodes, while the bridge is up around the 7th or 8th.

Image

The greater movement of the string also produces a higher output due to the movement through the magnetic field. This is why neck pickups are generally a lower output than bridge pickups... in some cases extreme. The bridge Duncan Invader is around 14k and is one of the hottest non-active pickups available. The same model neck pickup is only around 8k, but it is well matched in output to the bridge.

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Post subject: Re: Different Pickup Sound in Different Positions?
Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 11:30 pm
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Hi CB91910,
Many thanks for this.

And the actual pickup, the way it is made, whether it is single coil or humbucker, and so on, must also affect the sound - otherwise there would not be so many of them.


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Post subject: Re: Different Pickup Sound in Different Positions?
Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 11:41 pm
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Absolutely.
The design of the pickup, number of turns, type and strength of the magnet, distance from the strings, and position between the bridge and neck all impact the tone.

It's one reason that it is difficult to "Sound just like so-and-so"
Even with identical gear and an identical setup, you then add in the variable of how the player actually plays.

Where on the string is he picking, how close to the fretwire is his finger, how much of the pick is exposed, how deeply is he attacking the string....

There are a hundred variables.

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Post subject: Re: Different Pickup Sound in Different Positions?
Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 11:48 pm
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Thanks very much for that, Rich.

I am finding this very informative.


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Post subject: Re: Different Pickup Sound in Different Positions?
Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:34 am
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Historical perspective:

From its introduction in '54 until the mid '80s, the Strat had 3 identical pickups.

Gibson's dual humbucker guitars were the same way from the '50s through mid '80s -- identical pickups in both positions.

(There were tolerance variations when winding the pickup coils, so some pickups were hotter than others. But neither Fender nor Gibson sorted pickups by output -- just randomly grabbed pickups and stuck them in the guitar. So sometimes the hotter pickup went in the neck pisition and the weaker pickup in the bridge position.)

In the '70s, aftermarket companies like Duncan and DiMarzio blossomed. They had innovative ideas like "calibrated" sets of pickups. Higher output, darker sounding pickups for the bridge position, and lower output, brighter sounding pickups for the neck position.

Fender and Gibson took notice and started doing the same on some guitar models. Vintage Reissues generally have identical pickups in each position, with modern models having calibrated sets.
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When a pickup is marked as a "neck pickup" or "bridge pickup", that refers to the pickups' output and voicing (and sometimes polepiece spacing).

But it's not set in stone. Perhaps you want a very high output guitar -- you might put a "bridge position" pickup in the neck position and then put an even higher output pickup in the bridge position.

Or you might want a brighter sounding guitar, so you put a "neck pickup" in the bridge position.
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With Strats, there's another thing that started in the '80s. RW/RP (reverse wound/reverse polarity) middle pickups. By itself, that doesn't change the tone of the pickup. But in the 2&4 switch positions, when you combine the middle&bridge or the middle&neck, it creates a noise-cancelling effect.

So even if all 3 pickups have the same magnets and windings, where you put the RW/RP one matters.


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Post subject: Re: Different Pickup Sound in Different Positions?
Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:41 am
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People often assume that a pickup sold as a "neck pickup" sounds darker than a pickup sold as a "bridge pickup" and think the difference in the tone of the neck and bridge positions is due to the pickups.

But actually, the reverse is true. The physical location of the pickups is the tone difference. A pickup designed as a "neck pickup" is brighter and weaker, to reduce boominess and to compensate for the greater string motion. A pickup designed as a "bridge pickup" is darker and stronger, to reduce shrillness and to compensate for the lesser string motion.


Last edited by strayedstrater on Sun Apr 15, 2018 2:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Different Pickup Sound in Different Positions?
Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:07 pm
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strayedstrater,
Thanks very much for that historical overview.

I was aware of some of that, but not all.

One thing I find strange, though, is that you refer to the neck pickup in a Strat as "brighter" and the bridge as being darker.

Any Strat I have ever played, and the majority of those that I have heard, have sounded warmer and darker in the neck position, and sometimes impossibly shrill in the bridge position.

I am not talking about the inherent properties of the pickups, but how they come across when used in a Strat in the bridge and/or neck positions.

That is why, to my ears at least, the bridge position can be good for cutting through a mix, or making oneself heard in a live context.

Maybe we are talking at cross-purposes here in some way.


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Post subject: Re: Different Pickup Sound in Different Positions?
Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:59 pm
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No, you're right that the neck position is inherently darker and fatter sounding than the bridge position. The neck position and the bridge position, the physical position of the pickups.

That's why a calibrated set puts a brighter, weaker pickup in the neck position and a darker, stronger pickup in the bridge position.

Not to eliminate the differences in sound due to the physical positioning, just to moderate or tame the differences somewhat.

With vintage style non-calibrated pickup sets (all the pickups identical), it can sometimes be difficult to set the eq on your amp. If you set the amp's knobs so the neck pickup isn't boomy and muddy, the bridge position can sound thin and shrill. If you set the amp's tone knobs so the bridge pickup sounds fat and full, the neck position can sound bloated and flubby.

That's not to say calibrated sets are necessary or better. It often is possible to find tone settings that work with non-calibrated sets. Especially if you also use the guitar's tone and volume knobs, adjust the relative heights of the pickups, alter where you pick the strings depending on which pickup, etc, etc.

(Picking position was briefly mentioned in an earlier post -- notice that picking near the bridge gives a much brighter tone than picking near the neck.)

Edited my previous post to make it clearer that I was talking about calibrated sets where one pickup is labeled as a "neck pickup" and another pickup is labeled as a "bridge pickup".


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Post subject: Re: Different Pickup Sound in Different Positions?
Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 2:14 pm
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You can observe this while playing an acoustic guitar. There's a striking difference in tone when playing next to the bridge compared to playing over the fingerboard. I think many Fender pickups are voiced differently depending on their position, but you would probably hear the difference from identical PUPs just due to their physical location (like the acoustic).


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Post subject: Re: Different Pickup Sound in Different Positions?
Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 2:16 pm
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Vintage spec Strats not only use identical pickups in all 3 positions, they also have no tone control connected to the bridge pickup.

That makes setting the amp's tone knobs even more difficult since you can't roll off the bridge pickup's treble. And that's why so many people consider rewiring so that the bridge pickup has a tone control to be an essential modification.


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Post subject: Re: Different Pickup Sound in Different Positions?
Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 2:23 pm
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LawFlow wrote:
You can observe this while playing an acoustic guitar. There's a striking difference in tone when playing next to the bridge compared to playing over the fingerboard. I think many Fender pickups are voiced differently depending on their position, but you would probably hear the difference from identical PUPs just due to their physical location (like the acoustic).


Indeed, many Strat models do have hotter, darker bridge pickups.

But a lot don't. Vintage Reissues, Mexican Classics, Eric Johnson Signatures use identical pickups in all positions. With those Strats, the different tone of the neck and bridge positions is even more dramatic and significant than Strats that have bridge pickups that are hotter & darker than the neck & middle pickups.


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Post subject: Re: Different Pickup Sound in Different Positions?
Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:24 pm
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I think EJ Strats use different pickups. The neck and middle are alnico 3 and the bridge is a hotter alnico 5.


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