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Post subject: 2 sets of CS69 pickups , 2 Strats very different sound
Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:37 am
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Hi everyone ,

I've just acquired a 1982 tokai springy sound (57 Strat copy) that has cs69s in it .
and it's quite different sounding from my Fender Classic Player 60s with its cs69s.

I know the body and neck will affect tone, - I expected a bit of a different tone , but I'm also hearing a lot less clarity, attack and upper mids and treble from the Tokai strat.
The Tokai has newish electrics in it, so its not old 80s ones, and quality cloth wiring. It does have one of the goldish anodised (aluminium?) scratchplate. Also has new strings exactly same as on my CP60. I was told electrics & pups were installed by a tech , and all looks good quality.

It's similar but the tone is way flatter, less bright. Much more scooped mids and more bass ..its like the tone controls are on 6 compared to the CP60 strat. Or likeI'm using cheap old strings on it.

The upside is it's a warmer tone as the CP60 can be a bit harsh with tone at 10. But it's lost the nice spanky twang on the note attack and the clarity and these sound more like 62 for mex pickups in that sense mine g a bit more 'wooly' .
I have set the pickups to be less bassey like I usually do, which helped from initial sound.

So just wondering anyone's thoughts and experiences on this ?
Could it be tone pots. capacitors. or CS69s a few years apart are completely different. Or simply the guitar body. ?
CP60 has a rosewood neck and the Tokai a Maple , so I thought it would be a touch brighter, but not so..

Any help appreciated
Thanks
S


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Post subject: Re: 2 sets of CS69 pickups , 2 Strats very different sound
Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:16 am
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It is well know if you take pickups from a '59 Les Paul " the Holy grail of guitars" and you put them on 2008 Les Paul you won't find same great Holy Grail Tone .

:lol:


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Post subject: Re: 2 sets of CS69 pickups , 2 Strats very different sound
Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:20 pm
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Since wood and other materials for body and neck don't make any difference regarding tone, it's gotta be something else. :D


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Post subject: Re: 2 sets of CS69 pickups , 2 Strats very different sound
Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:26 pm
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Pot values (maybe the Tokai pots aren't 250k?), capacitor value and material, capacitance of the wiring itself, twisted pairs vs straight-line....
Bridge saddle material, fret material, string height, pickup height, age of the pickups, strength of the p/u magnets...
String gauge/brand/type/age....

There are dozens of reasons why two guitars will not sound/feel/play the same.
The body wood makes less of a difference than you would think, and the nut is completely out of the picture once you fret a note.

My '79 Anniversary was a completely different and horrible animal from my '78 Antigua.
Sounded flat, dry, soul-less. Pickups were significantly weak, neck was uncomfortable...
That Anniversary is one of only three guitars in the last 40 years that I have not regretted getting rid of as a player, though it is also one of only 3 that would have actually increased in value (the two Strats and my Kramer DMZ2000 "Tuning Fork".)

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Post subject: Re: 2 sets of CS69 pickups , 2 Strats very different sound
Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:33 pm
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LawFlow wrote:
Since wood and other materials for body and neck don't make any difference regarding tone, it's gotta be something else. :D
Go on an aviation forum and mention "downwind turn" or a car forum and mention oil filters :D But seriously, I don't disagree with you. Wood makes a HUGE difference in how a guitar sounds unplugged, and it will impact the "feel" and our enjoyment when playing simply because those vibrations are transmitted to our bodies.
But pickups are not acoustic devices... they are magnetic resonance transducers.
Body density and chambering may have an impact on sustain and feedback characteristics, but it does not significantly impact the EQ curve.

Will Gelvin summed it up nicely with a comparison video where he transferred the neck and all hardware between two uncut body blanks of Maple and Basswood. The difference is so small that only "confirmation bias" can tell you the difference... I actually guessed "incorrectly" and felt that the Basswood was a TOUCH brighter than Maple.

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Post subject: Re: 2 sets of CS69 pickups , 2 Strats very different sound
Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:43 pm
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Thanks for replies.

Yeah I suspect Its electrics , pots or capacitors as it seems more signal path degradation than just changing tone.
I’m going to swap over the loaded scratchplate from my `classic player 60s and see if that changes significantly.

Amazingly this Tokai Strat has the best ever neck I’ve played , sorry to fender fanboys ! (I’m one myself)

I’d always heard good things about the Springy Sounds vintage copies but this neck is finished to perfection. And puts AM and many custom shops to shame!

Compared to my previous 60s series this is another level. And strangely after playing a classic player 60s for the last year with 12” rad and medium jumbo frets , I’ve found that I love the 7 1/4 “ radius and vintage frets. Took an hour to adjust back to a vintage style neck.

And it plays significantly better , you have to be more accurate but you can move your hand and fingers with total ease , without feeling any frets to slow you down.

One another note , I’ve been trying loads of fender strats recently trying to find what neck suits me , and the modern style of Med Jumbo frets and flat boards are really difficult to play if you have smaller hands , in my opinion .

Cheers!


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Post subject: Re: 2 sets of CS69 pickups , 2 Strats very different sound
Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:08 pm
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klickflip wrote:

Amazingly this Tokai Strat has the best ever neck I’ve played , sorry to fender fanboys ! (I’m one myself)



Cheers!


No need to be sorry , Fender use so many neck profile overs years and model and many are finish by hand ( I see that on Corona Fender plant ) you could find same or better neck on many Fender guitars


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Post subject: Re: 2 sets of CS69 pickups , 2 Strats very different sound
Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:13 pm
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klickflip wrote:
Amazingly this Tokai Strat has the best ever neck I’ve played , sorry to fender fanboys ! (I’m one myself)
There is a reason that Tokai was one of the producers that Fender has contracted with over the years for non-US production ;)

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Post subject: Re: 2 sets of CS69 pickups , 2 Strats very different sound
Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:10 am
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I’m thinking that the reason you have touch a big difference in sound is because did you get ours are set up differently. I think you should check your neck relief internatio i’m thinking that the reason you have touch a big difference in sound is because did you get ours are set up differently. I think you should check neck relief, String and pick up height, and intonation.


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Post subject: Re: 2 sets of CS69 pickups , 2 Strats very different sound
Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:48 am
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I always say (whenever people ask about alternative pups) that the same pups will probably sound different from Strat to Strat. If the tones and vols are flat out, the pots aren't having any effect, and the heights are identical, it's something else, but I've never understood what!

I have an HH set of Pearly Gates and Jazz which sound great on one particular 2006 US Strat but quite different on another 2006 US Strat. One is white; the other is sunburst. I can't see why that would make a difference, and - from the comments here today - seems most would agree?

If you can be bothered, it might be interesting to swap the exact same pups between your Strats...

Cheers - Peter.


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Post subject: Re: 2 sets of CS69 pickups , 2 Strats very different sound
Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 9:50 am
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Even at 10, the pots do have an affect on tone.

The pickups's hot lead always has a path to ground through the pots. Albeit a very high resistance path, it puts an impedance load on the pickups.

Impedance loads interact with the pickup and change the resonant frequency.

If you have no-load tone pots, you can hear a somewhat subtle change in tone when you click to 10 and literally disconnect the pots from the circuit.

But the volume pot has a much more drastic affect. A "blower switch" that bypasses all the controls makes that dramatically obvious. But a 1 meg volume on 10 is significantly brighter and a bit louder than a 250K volume pot on 10.

Pots have tolerances. A pot labeled "250K" can actually be close to 200K or close to 300K. That's enough to make an audible difference. Not huge, but when comparing two guitars side by side, one with an above spec volume and one with a below spec volume, you can hear the difference.


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Post subject: Re: 2 sets of CS69 pickups , 2 Strats very different sound
Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:41 pm
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Quote:
Even at 10, the pots do have an affect on tone.
I stand corrected, but your ears must be better than mine!

Cheers - Peter.


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Post subject: Re: 2 sets of CS69 pickups , 2 Strats very different sound
Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:46 pm
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strayedstrater wrote:
But the volume pot has a much more drastic affect. A "blower switch" that bypasses all the controls makes that dramatically obvious. But a 1 meg volume on 10 is significantly brighter and a bit louder than a 250K volume pot on 10.
To the point that one of the few mistakes made by G&L was to use 1m pots in the Climax. Mine is an H-S-S, but they were available as H-H and H-S-H. I suppose the H-H version would have been just fine, as there is absolutely nothing wrong with the bridge H alone on mine, but as others have observed, the middle and neck single coils are far too bright to be useful.

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Post subject: Re: 2 sets of CS69 pickups , 2 Strats very different sound
Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:04 pm
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CB91710 wrote:
strayedstrater wrote:
But the volume pot has a much more drastic affect. A "blower switch" that bypasses all the controls makes that dramatically obvious. But a 1 meg volume on 10 is significantly brighter and a bit louder than a 250K volume pot on 10.
To the point that one of the few mistakes made by G&L was to use 1m pots in the Climax. Mine is an H-S-S, but they were available as H-H and H-S-H. I suppose the H-H version would have been just fine, as there is absolutely nothing wrong with the bridge H alone on mine, but as others have observed, the middle and neck single coils are far too bright to be useful.


There's a fix for that. Get two 1meg resistors. Take one, connect one lead to the switch where the middle pickup connects, and connect the other lead to ground.

Take the second resistor, connect one end to the switch where the neck pickup connects, and connect the other lead to ground.

The bridge pickup will still see 1meg, but the two single coils will see 500K.

You could trick the singles into seeing 250K but I'm too tired to calculate the resistor value you'd need.

(This trick also works with HSS guitars with 500K volume pots, using 500K resistors to trick the singles into seeing 250K.)


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Post subject: Re: 2 sets of CS69 pickups , 2 Strats very different sound
Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:35 pm
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Ya, cheap and easy avoiding doing any math... 4 resistors, a pair of 1m and a pair of 500k ;) Not so cheap but almost as easy and still no math, replace the stock singles with Hot Rails ;) Doing the math... 333k or 334k will get you there ;)

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